Eagledad

>>Can anyone point me to reports, studies, analyses, statistics, etc., that show this from the Canadian example?

Its not just the loss of present membership that would hurt, the BSA gets a huge huge amount of their funding from alumni. Usually alumni donations go to council resources and professional compensations. The loss of alumni funding really hurt the Girl Scouts and is what nearly killed the Canadian Scout program completely. Alumni Funding is probably the biggest fear and reason to resist change. And dont assume units wont feel the affects either, almost immediately camps go up for sale and the prices for attending camps will rise. Programs like Cub Day Camp and possibly Webelos Summer Camps will go away completely do to lack of resources. I would also expect a lot of districts and councils merging to make it easier for the shortened resources and staffs. The rural areas will almost be completely neglected and have to survive on their own. Ironically scouting might be forced to go back to a more traditional style program. Barry

>>Our kids are goin' to know such folks their whole lives, eh? And work with 'em, and live next door to 'em. And they should learn to treat 'em as neighbors and friends and colleagues and bosses and fellow souls made in da image and likeness of God.

This isn't new really, I had the same basic training back when I was District Membership Chair in 1997. I recruited my replacement and a couple of others. We had a subcommittee meeting before the District Committee just like it was suggested on this training. Our group made huges leaps and bounds in helping to the district program. Some of the policies we developed then are still used today. But most of the other committee chairs didn't recruit or lead subcommittee meetings and District Committee as a whole struggled. As for the recriting, everyone I recruited for the Membership committee in 1997 eventually became chairs for other committees. As was said, if you can read people and place them in the right place, you will likely have those volunteers for a long time. Barry

>> -Usual parental pressures - this is an affluent and (over) educated group of parents- so they push for rapid advancements. -While the boys are achieving at campouts I not so sure they are having fun.

>>So BSA's numbers have been growing by leaps and bounds over the last 30 years? Correlation does not equal causation.

>>The bottom line is that there's no way to quantify the pluses and minuses on either side of the argument. Any guesses we make are just that, guesses.

>>I know that my church will START a Troop and a Crew the second the BSA allows the Charter Org to follow their faith in applying the Morally Straight clause.

>>I'm one of those Eagledad hints at, really not the best fit for the job, but when I went to the DE to offer services as a UC, they had zero commissioner staff.

>> But, recruiting, is EVERY commissioner's job - not just the administrative commissioners

Im a little surprised that the District Commissioner and Council Commissioners havent been discussed. While there are some very good individual Unit Commissioners who have the passion to do a good job like SeattlePiondeer, the general quality of the Commissioner Corp. is a reflection of the leaders. Sadly, I have watched hard working UCs promoted up to a manager leader level even though they lack the skills for the position. Districts out there with a high level of quality UCs all have one thing in common, a DC with the skills of recruiting and accountability. Recruiting speaks for itself, but accountability is the skill of managing systematically the UCs to keep track and respond to a unit's performance. For example, its not really hard to identify a broken den in a pack, the signs are generally overwhelmed adults with over active unresponsive scouts. There are many red flags a UC can note and take back to the District for discussion. I know this because Ive seen it work well in other districts. Those districts attempt to nip problems in the bud. Also, I dont buy into the idea there arent enough good scouters out there to do the job, I once asked a DC for some help with Webelos loses. He responded by telling me he couldnt get enough UCs to do the job. I handed him a list two days later of eight excited and qualified scouters wanting the job. But the point of my response is to quit promoting scouters who are rewarded the the DC and Council level Commissioner position for their hard work in other areas of the program and instead search for and find that rare special person with the skills to recruit and manage the program properly. I also like Twocubs idea of specialized RT commissioners. We tried this idea in our District with some success a few years ago only we didnt call the RT commissioners. It was an idea from the training committee, so we called them District Special Forces. Mainly they handled new and struggling units. But I must caution, just like in the Commission Corp, the RT commissioners are only as good as the volunteers who are recruited. A scouter who was a lousy Scoutmaster will also be a lousy Scoutmaster Advisor for a struggling troop. Its all about recruiting. Good discussion. Barry

It is an unusually bad year for rain and the dust is a problem. I didn't end up with a problem like yours, but the worst for me at Philmont was a dry dusty campsite carpeted with cattle droppings. Every breath of air was filled with a dust from those dried out droppings. Barry

Cub Scouts is a whole different program than Boy Scouts. I found that you dont really have that much control over the 10 year old drug dealer because the parent is the pusher. Its the parents that cause most of the problems in cubs. While I was Cub Master, I had to ask two Den Leaders to leave because of drinking problem during den meetings. We had one dad who drove all the kids to an overnight event while drunk. We realize the problem at the event and sent home alone. He reported to rehab the next day, but still. I had a family steal $400 dollars from our Popcorn fund and the worst part was this family needed it for survival. I had to ask a den leader to quit because her brain tumor caused her to be abusive with the scouts. I loved my Cub Scouting experience, but it was a lot easier working with troubled boys in the troop than it was trouble adults in the cubs. As for the troublesome 11 years old Boy Scouts, well I found that we both developed character as we worked together. Trying not to brag, but I was a pretty good CM. However, I am who I am because of my experiences as a SM. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

You're preaching to the choir Kudu, but I'm sure you are only using my quote for an intro to your point. The struggle for traditional boy run program is not the knowledgeable scout leader working against the system to reach the vision, the struggle is finding the knowledgeable adult with the traditional boy run vision. Barry

>>During the yearly planning session I mentioned to the PLC that as the CC I had zero desire to run a Charter Night like we've been having. I asked them to draw up some plans for one by the boys for the boys.

Yes, but there used to be two seperate WB courses for Cubs and Troops. Now its one generic course for everyone. And there is a lot more written in the leadership manuals of how all the programs work. Its training adults early for future scout program opperations. Its a logical approach to training adults for future responsibilities. Barry

I wonder if that is a council thing, 40% of the participants of the WB courses I staffed a few years ago were female. Barry

>>I wonder if we can blame the lack of Outdoor Skills on the boondoggle of the 70's or not..

During my hay day when I got to talk a few minutes with some person closer to the mountain top, I kind of gathered that they aren't as close a team as we think. We envision a half of dozen folks who are supreme experts with everything in the program. I never got that from them. I got that each person has their own area of expertise and didnt venture too far into the other guys area. They probably assumed they other folks understood their area enough to be consistant with their area, but there wasnt a lot of talk about it. One example is the new SM Fundamentals course put out in 2000 was written by three different people independent of each other in three different parts of the country. Once they finished their part, they sent it to some other indpendent group to combine the three parts into the course. This makes sense to anyone who has taught the course because some of the PowerPoint slides and videos dont match the course contents. Their uniform content is inconsistent through the course chapters. They may have fixed this by now, but it was an annoyance for a few years. What I think is, for what ever reason, inconsistencies are not a high priority if they arent causing expensive problems. They may be on somebodys to do list, but changes are expensive, so why bother until at least the next major update? Barry

Airplane? That is very cool. Who and where is BTSR? We like most of the Colorado and New Mexico camps. They each have different program styles, so a little research is required. Several have excellent high adventure programs, but I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the boys inside the camp boundaries. Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico has a good program with the best backpacking (Pecos wilderness) our troop has ever done. Far better than Phimont. Each crew can customize their trek to as many days as they want, but the treks finish into Camp Frank Rand. Is that what you mean by in the camp boundaries? Another good camp is Spanish Peaks. Our troop has only used their High Adventure side which is backpacking in the Spanish Peaks wilderness. I understand that they have an excellent climbing and rappelling program they will mix into the back packing also, but we just backpacked. The reason our troop has not used their summer camp side is because that they don't have dinning halls. But we like what we saw. Our favorite camp is Camp Alexander. We like it because it is, or was a few years ago, a very boy run style camp. Pressure was more on the activities than the number of MBs. I have not heard anything bad about any of the Colorado camps. As I said, they each have a different style, so some research is required. But we like to visit the mountain camps every 3 or 4 years for a change of scenery from the hot Oklahoma Plans. Barry

We used the position as a leadership development position. The troop QM was responsible for training the patrol QMs so that they kept track of the gear and made sure it was checked back in clean. The QM has the keys to the troop shed and is fully responsible for the locked trailers as well. NOBODY inters the shed or trailer without the QM first unlocking the locks. He is also trained to help drivers hook the trailer to the cars. The QM is fully responsible for what goes in and out of the shed and trailer. Loading and unloading can be chaotic, that is why he is trained to delegate much of the task to the patrol QMs. Each high adventure crew that uses a trailer is required to have a trained QM for loading, unloading and hooking up the trailer. Only QM has the keys, so if he is a little slow getting around, he will here about it. You can see why we like scouts running for SPL to have Troop QM experience on their resume. Barry

>>I agree and wish we could move our Troop from a trailer troop to a Backpack troop. It would make life much easier and possibly less expensive.

>>I do think that creating an "all-backpack" troop is a viable option, but having a trailer does provide options - trunks to summer camp, bikes for a bike trip, flagpoles, axes, dutch ovens, etc.

We learned that multiple small trailers that average size vehicles can pull work better than large trialers that require trucks. Also the the troop isn't forced to use a big trailer when the outting only requires a small one. A high adventure crew outting or patrol campout for example. Barry

Its a new program for all of you, so all of you will be learning as the program progresses. Some things will have to change because they simply aren't working. If you pull the older scouts in and allow them to be part of the group as to what is working and what is not, you won't have any problems. Nothing makes and adult feel more adult than being an integral part of something big. Think our yourself as the team member with more of lifes experiences and enject those experiences into the discussions. Let the group make decisions based from the discussions, not for your position of stature. You don't want their reasoning to the other scouts to be "because the SM says so". What you want is, "we discussed it and this is what was decided". Now it can't always be that way because some of your life experiences will set limits that scouts can't understand. I like to teach that a 12 year old SPL does not have the maturity or experience of the 15 year old SPL. The 15 year old SPL does not have the maturity or experience of a father or husband. You have a lot of wisdom and boys need to learn to respect that. But, what you can do is present your case in such a way that you aren't using stature to force a decision, you are justifying it based from wisdom. Sometimes they are just going to have to trust you. Don't pull that card so much you loose that trust. I found that adults who truely want to develop a boy run program have to learn twice as much twice as fast than the scouts to keep the progrerss moving forward. You might as well learn now that you are are going to screw up a lot. You can either hide those mistakes with pride or learn from them, make changes and move on. Same for the scouts. Learning from failure is internal growth. Before each election, I told scouts that if they were good at a job, they shouldn't try to get the position again. Instead they needed to run for an office where they could grow by the mistakes they make. For the whole program to go forward, everyone needs to learn from their mistakes and make changes to improve. Mistakes are a good thing provided changes are made. You have a lot of work to do, but you will become addicted to the results and want more and more. The nice thing about older scouts is that they know how to have fun. Adults tend to let goals and business get in the way of being a boy. The older scouts can keep the balance if you let them. You are in a very good place right now Barry