Eagledad

Blw2. you are reinterpreting the founders to fit within your vision of a program design. You won't find Powell Green Bar Bill talking about same age patrols because their patrol design required older scouts to develop growth of all the ages within the patrols. And while I understand the bias that is based from your experience, you should at least remember that mixed age patrols worked very successfully for almost 90 years. Now don't get me wrong, I'm open minded with folks trying different approaches to get better performance. Hey, we tried same age patrols and learned a lot from the experience. But your post reminded me of a big difference adults have with today's patrol methods compared to my troop's adults in the 70s. As a team, most patrols in the 70s basically had an equal balance of skills and competed fairly with each other in scouting activities. Even patrols from different troops had that same basic level of skills. Today young scouts aren't expected to associate fairly with the other patrols because they lack the skills and experience of the more experienced patrols. That by it's nature forces the young scouts into a different level of activities than the rest of the troop. I find that difference of adult thought strange and nonsensical, especially for a boy run program. But then, I came from the 70s. When we started my son's new troop, I had an expectation for the scouts and the patrols based from my experience as a scout. I have noticed that Eagle94's expectations are based from his experiences. I'm curious, since you don't have much scouting experience as a youth, where do the expectations for your scouts came from? I'm not trying to be condescending or put you down, we all have a lot to contribute to the forum. But I can't imagine how you take the next step without the foundation of experience to draw a vision. Barry

How many scouts total do you have now and at what age? Our troop started with 17 scouts and averaged 25 new scouts a year for the next 10 years. I can't even begin to tell you the challenges of a fast growing "boy run" troop. Let's just say we did more things wrong than we did right. And I fully agree that mixed age troops are better performers for boy run programs. But there are a few situations where NSPs fit better for new scouts. At least for the first few months. As much as new scouts think they like the independence of a troop program when they join, they quickly find the chaos of boys making decisions in their new lifestyle a bit unnerving. New scouts require some special attention for their first few months to help them appreciate and enjoy the benefits of independence. BSA data shows that if a scout stays active in a troop for one year, they will likely stay with that troop several years. My observation of hundreds of new scouts shows that if the new scout stays active after summer camp, he will likely stay for several years. Barry

I don't know why but after reading thread, the theorem of "a troop naturally scales to the size the Scoutmaster can manage" keeps popping in my head. That being said, I really like MattR's reply because it works for every SM no matter the size of the troop or the patrol method style. Good thread, good stuff. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Our troop gradually changed away from using lanterns when we went to a back packing troop. We weren't trying to make point, save fuel or anything, lanterns was just one less thing to carry. And the experience showed us that we don't need light very often except for sometimes for detail task like preparing food or something. Anyway I think the first time we realized how much Difference it made was during camporee where all the other troops had enough light for To light up a football field. Of course we also stuck out because our camp didn't have big ol patrol boxes or elaborate kitchen set ups. Kind of funny, some troops thought we were a poor troop that couldn't afford equipment. Others didn't realize we were one of the bigger troops there because our camp site doesn't stand out so much without a lot of gear. Each patrol still has lanterns, Dutch ovens, axes, shovels, big Colemen stoves and other gear we collected over the years that they use occasionally when the need arrives. But the scouts (not so much the adults) are pretty minimalistic. I remember a guide at Philmont was surprised by how fast we set up and broke down our camp sites. I told him that camping out of a backpack is a normal day for the troop. we just aren't used to bears in Oklahoma. Barry

Try a couple of camp outs without lanterns and see how it goes. Call it survival nights or minimal packing or something. Just a trial, but change your routine to see what happens. We observed that boys tend to lean torward 'less' stuff. Try and just see. To your question, we like propane equipment because it is the most durable with scouts. Barry

Meanwhile back at the ranch. We went through this I think in 1998 and it is important that everyone, SCOUTS and adults, understand the changes because it can be a big mess at BOR. Trust me. The risk, at least back then, was record keeping, which is no big deal until Council has to verify a scouts records for Eagle. I think record keeping is a little better now at the council with computers. After we experienced the problems at BOR, we did some training to get everyone (even interested parents) up to speed. In our troop, training is considered important for patrol method. To simplify it for us, we drew a line, those who started on the old system stayed on the old system. Everyone else started new. It not only made it easier on the adults who do have to verify the records at BOR, but also on the scouts and patrol leaders. Barry

The title of the thread is "Troop Meetings: How to Motivate the Troop". Barry

Ah, the " my way of the highway." approach to ideas. LOL Oh, what was that about the Scout Law? Barry

Your son sounds like mine. Both set some new ideas and standards for working with new scouts, but neither had any ambition beyond working with new scouts. The risk of helping place scouts where they appear to fit is not giving them the chance to find their true calling. What we adults really want is for the scouts to determine their best skills so they can seek out responsibilities that fit their own limitations and interest. Also sadly, the scouting program design gives the appearance that leadership (not responsibility) experience is required to be a good scout. The adults can either encourage that idea (and most do), or they can retranslate it to mean a scout should seek out his own skill sets by challenging themselves with responsabilties of their interest. When I was fairly new at Scoutmastering, I had a scout who didn't seem all the happy with scouting. His dad was one of our most active committee members and kept him in the program. So I suggested he run for PL, which only set him farther away from my trust. Leadership was not his thing, but in an effort to be a good SM, I kept searching for tasks that would give him a taste of some kind of responsibilities. Our troop was ask to participate in the annual Council Scout Fair, so we seree were throwing around ideas and I suggested teaching scouts and scouter how to use the internet to get ideas for their program. BAM, this scout grab that idea, took ownership and had four computers set up to show how to find sites and ideas for scouting. I mean we didn't have to do anything except to show up and listen to him train us. And, our booth was so popular that we were clogging up the main isle of the building. That scout changed, he became one of our most active scouts until he aged out with his Eagle. You just never know what a scout can really do until he finds that nitch. And then you better watch out. Barry

One of my suggestions when this happened in our troop was change the location of the meeting. So come up with a theme that requires a fun meeting somewhere else. The park, the lake, gym, basket ball court, military base, or something. Do something completely different, even just a movie. The SPL is trying to get the cart out of the rut, sometimes that takes doing something completely different. Barry

Wow, sounds like the adult's final word on the matter. You need to stand 100 yards back sir. Anything can be made somewhat pleasurable with the right creativity. "Somethings aren't fun but have to be done" is adult speak and encourages close mindedness. Instead we should show humility by admitting you (the adult) don't have an answer, and open mindedness by asking for help in creating a solution to move forward. Scouts can be pretty creative when given motivation and appreciation. By the way, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but some scouts just don't have leadership skills or ambition and don't mind failing. They aren't bad scouts, they are just in the wrong place to grow. Our troop once cancelled a NASA trip to Houston because of such a scout. Great kid who loved scouting, but that leadership gig just wasn't his thing. Barry

The two laws of motion for boy's are motivation and accountability. Too much of one or not enough of the other can produce undesired leverage in the wrong direction. The balance of motivation and accountability needed to move us forward are different for everyone. But, a general rule is that boys like more adventure than paperwork. So depending on the boy, sometimes we need to be cleaver in turning the paperwork into adventure. Barry

This has been a very sad thread for many reasons, but I was thinking of you Renax as I was driving to work this morning and how you wanted more than anything for your actions in this situation to be the right actions for your son to witness from his dad. How much better would our culture be if all parents made the same effort. As a scout leader and trainer, I expressed many times over the years how scouting is the chance for boys to learn the kind of character habits their parents want them to have when they are fathers, husbands and community leaders. And many witnesses have told me that scouting has done exactly that. But in the last couple years my 32 year old son has been taking the time to call and just chat. And maybe it's because he is about to make me a grandfather for the first time, but he has expressed more than once how appreciative he is of the way his parent raised him. So while I will always champion for a youth program that builds citizens of character and leaders of integrity, there is no replacement for good parents. Well Done Barry

Yes, I got it the first time. How ever you decide to respond, keep the topic on the expectations and the circumstances. Don't point fingers, mention names and don't make it me against the world. If you can't do that, than no response is better than a scorched earth response. Everyone lives in the same community, so maintain your dignity and integrity. Barry

Since my wife does most of the cooking, I asked her for advice with your question. Ok, she's an accountant, what does she know? As and engineer, I enjoy working on these kinds of experiments. I had never thought about cooking an egg in the coals, but there was a time I was trying something similar with the microwave. It seems our results kind of parallel. I found that there is a small window of time where the egg whites get cooked but not the yoke. Pull the egg out of the microwave (coals) before they explode and let it sit a couple minutes while the heat of the egg whites cooks the yoke. It's easier to find that window on the microwave because it cooks consistently, but we are men trying to save the world one small step at a time and have persistence. I look forward to learning your results. Barry

Renax, I understand your hurt, truly I do. Take the time you need to get far enough to think about your next step without letting emotion drive your decisions. Don't loose one bit of the integrity and respect you have built up to this point. People by instinct don't like confrontation and will allow some chaos even when they know it is wrong to prevent getting involved. So, reacting emotionally against what has happened will only push them away from you. If the situation is how you described, these other adults don't have your passion or drive and sooner than later will be looking for someone to release them. And, I learned over the years that the dominant adult driving the program doesn't always have "master" in the title. Be patient, be humble, be loyal, and stay the course. Your passion will be rewarded. Some years later I can say the hurt doesn't completely go away, but going forward without letting the anger make your choices brings a smile and a strong sense of satisfaction for making the hard choices. I wish you the best in the future of scouting my friend. Barry

You mean like same age patrols, NSPs, patrol guides and Venture patrols? LOL Barry

Jim, let's be fair about this, your magnanimous attempt to show the recent liberal changes as taking a more noble direction is sadly disrespectful of past leaders. There was no visible altering of the program as you suggest and I've never heard of any scout being asked to leave because they were part of a group that the BSA restricts from the adult membership because they wanted these young men to experience a values oriented program. I know there are a handful examples law suits in the news, but the reality is that vaste majority of adult leaders wanted every boy to have a chance. Barry

Not in writing, but there was and is no lack of demonizing, name calling, and belittling at the conservatives to bully for liberal change. Not very scout like, but they what they want. Of course The liberals lost their souls in the process because they sold off morality for cultural high ground. As the Girl Scouts, Campfire Kids and the Canadians have learned, a values teaching program can't grow in an environment of compromising morals and ethic principles. Barry

Wait, seems some of us (you) have very short memories. WHAT ABOUT THE LOCAL OPTION SAVING THE BSA? And what are you guys talking about the BSA sticking its foot in the religious door? Because of the season, I was remembering back when I was selected to be part of our public elementary Christmas Boys Choir in the 60s. It was quiet an honor at the time in the community. Let's be fair, it's wasn't that long ago that religion and most anything associated with religion was a good thing. Politics and like minded media have been slowly polluting the minds of our culture. Scouting, schools and even churches just got dragged in. I still laugh thinking back of the posters here who believed that all the BSA needed to fix the bleeding membership problem was just allow gay adult leaders. Let's face it, our culture are just sheep following political wolves. Barry

BSA made it an issue? Please!

Venturing is a mess because the wrong people use it for the wrong reasons, mainly to save the older scouts in troops. We saw 3 out of 5 Crews drop out in less than five years. If the leaders can't make it work in a troop, what makes them think they can do it in a Crew. The most successful Venturing Crews have active programs independent of Troops. Barry

Well not completely useless. Because of my experience of OA back in the day, I didn't push it much while I was a SM. I didn't discourage it and we did have some adults in our troop who enjoyed the program, but I just didn't push it much. However, several of our scouts who did join flourished in OA because they love the serving side of scouting. Most of the OA leadership in our district was from our troop. The adult representatives enjoyed our scouts because they knew how to organize, plan and run events. I took that as a sign of our program being successful. Ironically, because our troop seem to produce good enthusiastic leaders, I was asked several times to be the OA district representative. I always declined without explanation and that frustrated some. But my heart just isn't into the new and modern OA. Barry

I use to say at training that 50% of a SMs job is working with the adults. Not a big deal to a boy run SM in a troop where the scouts camp 100 yards away. But, I really believe it's even more than 50%. Also, a lot of working with parents is understanding where they are coming from and not trying to change them. For example, I learned that most home sickness was a result of the parents struggling with their young sons leaving the home for a few days. We parents have to learn how to give independence just like a scout how to learn to use it. So instead of parents telling their son that they can't wait to see them of the camp or that they will miss them, we instructed them instead to express how they envy the adventure their sons are going on. Ask their sons to write down the highlights of the trip so they can tell them all about it when they get back. We get frustrated that parents don't see the picture our way and expect them to change instantly, but helping our sons grow into independed confident decision makers takes time. Show them how and don't be so frustrated if they don't get it all at once, 50% of your time is with them, so there is no hurry. Barry