Eagledad

It's up to the scouts. Our philosophy is to encourage scouts to practice independent reasoning and decision making. Controlling their own advancement plan is a big part of that intention. New scouts are guided to ask their PL for help when ever they want to learn the skills and/or pass off requirements. Sometimes the PL takes care of it in the patrol, sometimes he sends the scout to ask the PLC. Our troop has a 45 minute PLC meeting before every Troop meeting and everyone knows that the church is open during that time. Scouts use the time to meet with a MC counselor, work on rank advancement, get coaching for POR, advancement patrol meeting, or whatever scouting business they need to take care of . On camp outs, the PLC always plans a couple hours of free time on Saturday and Sunday and a lot of scouts use that time for skills work. And if several scouts need work on the same requirements, they might ask the PLC to plan a meeting on a Saturday morning. It's all really up to the scouts. Honestly the adults don't pay that much attention because the scouts pretty much take care of it. We don't use instructors or didn't while I was SM) much because we have a large pool of older scouts. Our SPLs quit using them because it was harder to keep them busy than finding an older scout willing to help. Honestly, the adults were not invited in that decision. But the system works, we average 1 Eagle every 1.5 months. My goals when we were developing the program was to remove any obstacle from a scout advancing at his own personal pace. Barry

Not always, but the PLC typically tries to fill three meetings with a theme: rappelling shooting sports, Space exploration, I couldn't see this working, but they actually did a fantastic job of filling three meetings of busy activities. A visiting den of Webelos joined the troop because they were so impressed. Fly-fishing, Bicycling, First-aid, one year the older scouts taught making fake wounds, blood and broken bones. Next meeting the troop simulated a car wreck. First-aid, another year a Air-ambulance was flown in. Fire trucks at another meeting. Car show - a group of scouts working on the Car Mechanics MB planned that one. Very cool. More will pop in my mind, I'm sure. We tried to stay away from typical First Class teaching type stuff. Barry

I'm not a fan of NSPs or same age patrols, there are just to many negatives to overcome with a boy run program. But a good leader can make any patrol style work when the goals are understood. In the big picture, 300 feet is a lot more important than election cycles. A past member Kudu like these kinds of challenges because he believe the rebellious boys had the most moxie to make an independent patrol function best. That was his style and he was/is good at it. But he like the Badon Powell scouts because the SM chooses the Patrol Leader who tends to stay with the patrol several years. Not my style, but as I look at Eagle94's Patrol, I think this might be an approach I would consider to get these scouts running forward. I'm not proud, I look for what it takes. I don't know, my style of leading is watching the growth of scouts. If they are getting bored, not learning skills and not really trying to enjoy the program, then I change things. I think I would push this patrol to be different from the other patrols. I would work with the SPL to try a few things to find what makes it work. I might start pushing them to be a back packing patrol and do everything as if they are going in the back county. I might even give them the notoriety of always hiking a mile in and out of camp. I would sell it as being the extra cool patrol. Yes, it seems hard at first, but it will eventually be something all the patrols want to try. Make this patrol different, make it special. A slightly different uniform that fits their more adventurous image. Different back packing tents, different patrol gear. They would become the experts of packing in light. It doesn't sound like anyone will mind since this patrol is already been given up as the misfit patrol. Done right, this might be the model patrol the troop uses five years from now. Can you imagine these guys becoming the elite scouts of the troop? Maybe, I'm a dreamer. Yes, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

What works best comes down to what gives the best growth. Is one method more challenging than the other? Does the challenge improve the program? I'm a big picture person who likes to think the next SM and the one after him doesn't have to relearn the program to keep up with the scouts. So I try not to get too far off from the BSA models. When troops run off of one mans theories, it doesn't matter how successful the theories work, the program will likely go through a dramatic change with the next leadership. That doesn't mean you stick with what doesn't work (NSPs didn't work for us), but you don't want to get so far away from the BSA that nobody else has a clue either. If you are truly running a boy run program, the elections style don't change performance very much. Barry

I'm thinking along the same lines as qwaze. The meetings aren't going to fix anything, not in the current format. I was also thinking about a overnight campout intended to let them struggle on their own. But one thought the meeting is to grab the guys after opening and take them to a place where you can divide them into two teams, then have a tent set up race. After they finish, sit down and ask them how well they think they did. Ask them if they can do better. Then tell you will give each team a minute to come up with a plan and then race again. This time see how they do. Hopefully they are getting into it. Hopefully you are seeing some kind of team work. Ask them how they did again, Can they do better. Then tell they have one minute as a group to come up with a plan to set the tent up together and time them. After they are through, ask them if that is the best they can do because you are going to ask the older scout patrol to a challenge. See what that does. Did they come together in some way? Does a leader stick out? You need to build this patrol into a team. Seperate them out from the troop program until you get some cohesion. I like quaze' idea of a patrol camp out. The scouts need to change their behavior and that won't happen until the are uncomfortable with their present behavior. They need to be stressed to change. Not stress with authority coming down on them, but stressed because they are making wrong choices. Also nothing like physical stress to build a team. Competition is a great team builder and boys love competition. Those are some quick thoughts anyway. Barry

Just for clarification, there are few of enough of these scout to merge into other patrols, why is that not considered? Barry

Yes. Basically any scout can plan an activity. He does have to propose it to the committee, but that is only to force him to think it out enough that he isn't wasting crew members time. He has to find an adult or adults who will participate, unless the activity doesn't require adults. The crew does only last until the main activity is Completed, but a crew may last as long as 18 months because the main activity like Philmont is planned that far ahead. I think the Scuba Crew lasted a little longer than a year because of the time to get the scouts certified and to plan the trip. The Scouts are responsible for planning, so that may delay the schedule as well. We didn't allow the Activity Crews to meet during normal meetings, so it was common for them to meet just before of just after. And then do their practice or shake down activities on weekends. Once the idea takes off, you can have a lot of outside activities going on. I think we had six crews one year. Several thoughts led us to this idea. One was we wanted scouts to come forward with their dream ideas for adventure. Another was that we thought of ourselves as an adventure troop for all scouts of all the ages. While it was never implied, many scouts viewed high adventure only for the older scouts. We wanted young scouts to come up with ideas as well. One year the snow skiing trek was planned by two 11 year old scouts and it included 20 scouts of all ages. Eventually all outside patrol activities were being done with our activity crews. One crew was created for a service project. We also encourage inner patrol activities as well. In fact the PLC plans two patrol camp out months a year. And the patrol can do their own thing on troop planned campout if they want. Really the objective of the Activity Crews was attempting to remove barriers from scouts so they could be as creative as they want to be. To start it in your troop, create a simple outside activity like a weekend back packing trip, or even a fishing trip, then get a scout to buy in and take responsibility. Use that model and keep calling all the outside activities Activity crews or patrols. I hope that helps. Barry

I know we are missing a lot of details here, but you paint a pretty dark picture. Why do you think these scouts keep coming? Barry

In our case, it wasn't showing an ideal model, it was clarifying parts of it. The scouts were using the model from a copy of a PL Manual by William Hillcourt (Greenbar Bill). But as the saying goes, you don't know what you don't know. The handbook explains how in Patrol Corners the PL discusses patrol business with the quartermaster, grubmaster and so on. But it doesn't say what the discussions are about. Well of course we adults know from our experiences as scouts and assumed it was clear to the scouts. But the new scouts don't have that experience, so it was vague. When we adults simulated the PL talking with the patrol officers, their light bulb clicked on. Most adult leaders think that training gets scouts prepared to function in their POR. It really doesn't. Training has basically two purposes in scouting: It prepares the scout just enough to give them confidence for starting in a new position. And it clarifies confusion of responsibilities or skills of the position, which was the case here. Barry Barry

Are you saying this group of scouts have been together in the troop roughly a year? NSP? Barry

Yes, all the time. They liked to be challenged as I mentioned above. The alternative you asking for is handing them the responsibilities of running a program where all the scouts continually grow from their experiences. You keep suggesting that older scouts don't want to lead younger scouts, If that was the case, then why do adults do it? These scouts are just adults looking for the same satisfaction of successfully running, not leading, but running a program where their actions determine how others will participate in their program. They have ownership of a program where they have responsibility for the lives of other scouts. Can you not see the romance of that vision? We have a motto, let's develop the troop so that adults (18 and older) are out of business. Maybe I'm the problem because that is how our troop runs. Over 40% of our troop is scout 14 and older. There has to be a reason why they like the program. Sure, we have plenty of high adventure, but I find that only 25 percent of the older scouts join a crew at least once a year. A Troop should be a place where a scout likes to go because the program makes him feel good about himself. Ask an older scout how he can make a difference and he will have some ideas. I remember one 16 year old scout who wanted to talk to me because his dad, an ASM, was giving him a hard time because he took a job that would require him to miss the last half of the troop meeting. He said, and I will never forget this: "My dad misses meetings all the time for work and nobody says anything. But if I miss a couple of meetings, the adults get upset". He liked the troop and he wanted to keep coming, but he could only give the troop 30 minutes of his life at each Monday meeting and he didn't want to be hassled. I keep saying that if adults are truly humble, they will learn and grow from listening the scouts. I grew a lot at that moment. After we discussed this for a while, I asked him if he would mind coming in 30 minutes early to coach new grub masters. He loved the idea and boy did he take off with that responsibility. He told me later that he just wanted to be part of helping the troop. It wasn't a babysitting job to him, it was helping young scouts do better. The biggest hindrance to scout growth is adult preconceived ideas. None of us are the smartest guys in the room. But we can listen and change what doesn't work. Our program was pretty successful, but I tell anyone who listens that we did a lot more things wrong than we did right. What made us successful was the willingness to fix problems. I wish I could say fixing a troop to where older scouts like to stay and work the troop program is as easy as flipping a switch, but it takes time because both the older scouts and adults have to grow and mature enough to effect changes. The adults have to quit projecting their idea troop on the scouts and the scouts have to learn to project ideas to improve the program. That takes time to develop, at least for us. But wow what a satisfying feeling of accomplishment when I think back on it. Barry

I remember talking with an older scout who had been with the troop since the beginning. I don't remember how this came up, but the scout said the only thing I remember in training during the early years that helped me a lot as a PL was when the adults modeled an ideal patrol corners meeting. He said everything all of a sudden made sense. The scouts in the new troop didn't have older scout role models to learn from. Barry

Popularity is the only reason they added the 14 year old restriction.

This is interesting, we saw this too in our area, but it was in the same age patrol troops. For some reason these troops top out at age 14. My opinion is that it's less to do with patrol style and more to do with program maturity. Troops that struggle to plan activities more advanced than just using first class skills struggle to hold older scouts. After doing three years of the same thing, scouts burnout. By the way stosh, older scouts wanting just high adventure is a myth. I and others on this forum have found that the majority of scouts 14 and older can take it or leave. What they want is a program that challenges them mentally and physically. That is why Venture Patrols and many Troop created Venturing Crews fail so miserably. And it is never mentioned here, but the troop adults also burnout in these programs. If the troop adults are burning out, why would we assume the older scout wouldn't. Scouts 14 and older have the mental and physical maturity of adults. The nature of adults is measuring their place in society by comparing themselves to others. So instinctively older scouts like challenges where they can measure their performance. That is why giving them the reins of a complicated program like a troop feeds that challenge. If it wouldn't be interesting for the adults, it will be interesting for the older scouts. Barry

You are exactly right. If you can understand the mind of the scout, than you can better understand how to improve the scouts' growth. Think about the brave adults who start a new troop from a den of just crossed over Webelos. With the knowledge that boys this age don't want to lead, how do the adults develop a patrol or troop program that use the actions of leaders? We all have different styles, but the challenge is for those adults to give the young scouts enough leadership responsibility for develop habits and traditions without taking the fun out of the program. The adults have to be very understanding of the situation, very creative to encourage the scouts with challenging responsibilties, and very empathetic to know when the scouts have had enough. Starting a new troop is hard, I'm worn out just thinking about it. Barry

THAT IS EXACTLY HOW WE TRY TO DO IT.( Caps for applause). I couldn't have said it better. Experiences in the troop develops the scout's confidence to step up to the next challenge. Before every election, I gave the same speech that if the scout thinks the office he wants is easy, he is too mature for that office and will get bored. Challenges are fun and it is OK to screw up in our troop because it's a sign you are trying. Barry

Sounds like you have a great troop Hedgehog. And I agree, just because a scout wants to do an activity, doesn't mean he is qualified physically or mentally, There are different ways for scouts to prove or improve their physical and mental maturity. And, we learned the hard way that even adults need to prove their mental and mostly physical capabilities. Barry

Of all the problems that were created from the induction of NSPs, this was my number one struggle. See, I came from the sixties and seventies where scouts joined a troop as soon as they qualified by age or Cub scout advancement, so troops received new scouts 1 or 2 at a time all year long. It wasn't a hardship on the patrol because they started teaching the new scout skills as soon as he joined. As new leaders starting a new troop in the 90s, we were trying to build our troop from the memories of our youth experiences and the Webelos crossing over by Dens threw a huge wrinkle at us. After a few years and loosing a lot of first scouts, we eventually figured out how to make it work for a boy run troop. I know it can work, but the NSP is a challenge for the boy run program. The NSP system changed a lot of traditions that are here to stay even if troops don't use the NSP in their program. Barry

This is the kind of example that drove us to change our minimum qualifications for just about everything in our troop. You can't do much about Philmont's minimums, so we started looking for other backpacking treks at summer camps and found several good ones in Colorado and New Mexico that didn't have age requirements. We skipped the BSA boundary Waters guides and used our own. Our troop eventually developed what we call adventure crews (AC). These are temporary crews created just for a single trek then dissolved. Adventure Crews can be anything the scouts want. One year we had a snow skiing AC, back packing AC, Philmont trek Crew and a AC that went to Alaska. Over the years we have had river rafting ACs, scuba diving AC that went to Mexico and even an AC that went to six flags once. The only requirements to be in the AC are physical and mental minimums for the trek. Mentally means having the minimum skills for the trek. The troop also took out any age and rank requirements after above First Class in the all the PORs. Scouts only needed to qualify for just about anything based on their maturity and experience, not their rank above first class and age. Even ambitious new scouts with special skills have a chance for the more mature responsibilities. Although some young scouts found that members of their patrols wanted more from their leaders than just ambition. LOL Barry

Dumbing down is not allowing for the exceptional minority to accel to their level of challenge. The reason patrol method works is because the individuals of the patrol are not limited to a single level of challenges. Barry

Of course, that is what patrol method does. But a program should not be restricted for the few, rather it is designed for the many while not restricting the special talents of the few. Barry

Young guys don't want to be leaders, they want adventure. Young PL leaders is a new idea that came along with the NSP patrols. The nature of pre puberty boys is adventure in groups with their friends, not standing out alone as the leader away from their friends. That all changes with puberty. Pre puberty boys learn 90% of their behavior by watching those around them. Once they reach puberty, that natural learning switches off and their instinct for independent thought is driven by what they learned from observing. A troop doesn't have to teach leadership if the older scouts are seen doing it. Trust me, I've watched it work over and over many times. New leaders will basically mimic the habits they observed over the years from the leaders before them. I got all that from my child psychologist Scoutmaster buddies. Let the new guys enjoy the adventure side of the program, which is why they joined and let the older guys lead which is why they stay. Of course you can force the new scouts to lead and it will be fun for them at first, but it gets old really fast. They get bored, then frustrated because they are performing up to somebodies expectation. They don't have fun and they want to leave. It is the cycle of life. Even when we have NSPs, we don't make them lead. Barry

I didn't hear the podcasts, but I was also thinking along this line. Barry

If that is what the troop chooses, I'm with you. But the BSA handbooks don't mention a scribe/treasure relationship, so we have to be careful defining and/or adding to the scribes responsibilities for meeting expectations. Really the same goes for the treasure, some adults may not want the added responsibility of working with scouts. Barry

Units can be as creative as they need to encourage scout growth within reason for POR expectations, but the BSA gives the scribes more responsibilities that just taking care of scout funds. Barry