Eagledad

Again, what if you are wrong? Do you get to leave the room without a word from them? As the SM, I have been in several meetings with the BOR after a review with a scout and sometimes the SM needs to rethink their part in the process. In a troop were the adults are trained and understand their responsibilities, the scoutmaster might need to change something. Think of the BOR and SM as a team, not adversaries. And sometimes the situation isn't caused by something faulty in the program, it is just and unusual situation that requires getting heads together to find a creative solution for the best interest of the scout. Mentally challenged scouts or scouts who transferred from other troops come to mind. Barry

Then who checks on the SM? What if the SM is doing it wrong? I'm guessing what you were trying to say is that if the BOR doesn't give the Scout the required signatures, the adults should call a meeting to understand the problem and figure out how to fix the problem and change something to prevent it from happening again. There is nothing wrong with BOR when used correctly. A good SM respects the BORs responsibility and is eager to hear what the board has learned from the scout. In fact, a good SM will grow into a better SM from a good BOR. A proud SM who dismisses the BOR's value or considers the board members beneath the SM's position is dangerous and sets a bad example for the Scouts. It doesn't matter how well the SM presents a patrol method program, a troop with that SM is an adult driven program. Clearly the adults in the OPs troop needs some training. Barry

My apologies to the mods that this response really belongs in the Uniform Forum. I will gladly accept any action you decide appropriate for my post. Over the years as a adult leader instructor, I've experienced two subjects that seem to challenge adult leaders more than any other subject, including patrol method. Those two subjects are discipline and uniform. They raise above just about anything else in the normal scouting environment because adults approach them from the emotional perspective and emotion is a strong force to change. In the case of the uniform, I find adults stumble around the subject just as I see stosh stumbling around. Stosh suggest that a scout will learn to respect the uniform by the respect he receives from others around him. And yet Stosh is quick to discount guidance or the Scoutmaster's respect, the one person who just have some insight to understanding of the subject. I select stosh only because his post is representative of 99% of scouters in the BSA. Part of the reason we struggle with the uniform is because the BSA tells us that it is one of the Eight most important methods or applications a boy uses to grow into a man. And yet, they come right back and say "but it is not required. Well, that's interesting. Another reason adults struggle with the uniform is because most have an emotional relationship with it. Some adults believe by it because of their experience in the military, law enforcement, sports or whatever. Other adults have negative view of the uniform and are quite happy to let that part of the paramilitary program go. I had once such ASM who was involved in campus anti-authority protest back in the 60s. As I have said in my Scout Spirit post, units tend to follow the Scoutmaster's approach of the uniform. Which is fine except the reasoning behind the Scoutmasters approach doesn't always make sense among outsiders. Consider stosh who doesn't require his scouts to wear the uniform or wear it correctly. Yet his next sentence is a warning that if a scout does chose to wear the uniform, he better wear it correctly. I'm sure that makes sense in stosh's mind, but those of us on the outside (at least me) is scratching our heads. But as I said, just about all of us struggle with how to use the uniform method. It's hard to tell in his post, but I think stosh is correct in that he is trying to give the scout the responsibility for justifying his decision. But where we adults struggle in giving scouts credit for ambiguous decisions is the lack of reference for making a "correct" choice. Stosh like to suggest the adults stay out of it. Fine, but scouts then miss out from wisdom that gives them some sense of direction. Freedom and independence can be harmful just as harmful as strict direction when ignorance sends a scout the wrong direction. Without trying to guide leaders to how I use the uniform in our troop when I am a SM, I try to pull them back some from their emotional tie with THE Uniform dress and instead consider how to use the Method as working toward the 3 Aims (Character, fitness and citizenship). I also try to encourage adults look at these things from a boy perspective in an attempt to sway them away from nebulous or vague objectives like a scouts learning to respect the BSA by simply wearing the uniform. If a scout doesn't like camping, the uniform isn't going to change that. On the other side, there is the reference that stosh points out that if a scout wants some respect from scout outside the troop, the uniform itself does have some power of influence. What I think Stosh was trying to say is that development of character comes best when a scout rationalizes changing character habits by the experiences of previous decisions. My only advice is that the Scoutmaster should have an opinion so give scouts a starting place or reference to consider and compare against or with their own reasoning. In fact, I think scouts want an opinion from the Scoutmaster, even if they disagree with it. The uniform IS one of the Eight Methods for developing boys into men of character. I wish the BSA hadn't said scouts don't have to wear the uniform because that guidance is subversive to the power of using the other methods to toward the Three Aims. If scouts don't have to wear the uniform, do they really have to use the patrol method? And, quite honestly there is growth in trying to justify cost of uniforming instead of just letting scouts off the hook completely. I have seen scouts use the cost issue dishonestly (wrong choice) to justify not wearing the uniform. And yet, the Scout Handbook used to be clear on how a scout should dress for specific scouting activities. Has that changed? I would enjoy a discussion of why each of us think the uniform benefits the scouts. Like stosh, I like each individual scout to make that choice based on his personal experience and reasoning. Some scoutmasters don't trust giving scouts that independence and it is too bad. I said before that I have yet to observe a perfectly well dressed truly boy run troop. But doesn't mean the troop doesn't have guidelines and expectations, mine certainly does. It just means the scouts are given the time, responsibility and mentoring to figure it out. Just like with the other 7 methods. Sorry to go off on a different rabbit trail. Mods, its all yours. Barry

I truly believe that what you just wrote makes complete sense to you. But it's kind of like some of these leadership threads that get started, it seems the author has the subject fully formulated and understood in their mind, but it comes out abstract to everyone else. That being said, I don't disagree with you in general, I'm an engineer and we like things nice neat and tidy. We like objective input with objective results. However, everything about Scout Spirit is subjective. As I said, objective judgement of Scout Spirit is different for every unit because every Scoutmaster has a different objective perspective of a Scouting Spirit. It is much easier to teach Scoutmasters to hold everyone in the troop accountable to their specific objective standard than to come up with a formula to force adults of all units to look at Scout Spirit the same objectively. These discussions come up because two adults in the same unit disagree, not because a adult and scout disagree. And most of the time, one adult has an agenda other than the good of the scout. National gets challenges from Eagle Scout candidates all the time who feel they are being unfairly held back with the Scout Spirit requirement. I have yet to hear of one case where the scout lost simply because because it is so subjective. But the flaw of your thinking is that most adults, including you and me, think our opinions of Scout Spirit are objective, not subjective. We have to think that way because we otherwise could not guide a scout to his character growth. EVEN THOUGH we want the scout to find his character habits from his reasoning as a result of his experiences, there has to be some kind of compass for "taking care of your scout" to focus on a direction of expectation. Do you see what I mean? It's only when the adult tries to take the independent decision making away from the scout that trouble happens. Scout Spirit takes a lot of hits when an adult has issue with a scout's advancement, but if National somehow miraculously fix the scout spirit to everyone's agreement, the same adult bent on slowing the scout down will still find another obstacle. Scouts Spirit isn't the problem, the adult is typically the problem. I mean really, "uniform"? Don't blame Scout Spirit for that reach. Barry

Wow! Moving on, scout spirit is not typically a problem between the adults and scouts because as Calico pointed out, most scouts will not stand up to adults. These discussions come up because of disagreements between adults. Stosh, you haven't had any problems because you don't even allow other adults to disagree with you in your small troops. And it's not just stosh, the measurement of Scout Spirit in "every unit" is defined by the adults, typically the Scoutmaster. Which is why objective definitions change from unit to unit. The better troops set that standard on the adults equally to the scouts. You don't usually hear of many Scout Spirit issues in those units because everyone pretty much knows the definition of good behavior. It's the units where Scout Spirit expectation isn't enforced equally among the adults and scouts that problems arise. As I said, between the adults. That is not to say that the OP isn't right here, but the real issue is the unfairness of the CC who appears to have a different definition of Scout Spirit, at least with the OP. I think Eagle94 said it best, this issue is just a sign of deeper problems for this unit. Is the CC supposed to question the Scoutmaster's call on Scout Spirit? Is he really supposed to hold him back in this situation? And Stosh, Calico or anybody else who thinks the problem goes away just by letting the scout define Scout Spirit, lets see how you respond to a scout who believes that hostel threats toward other scouts are acceptable within Scout Spirit. Not an easy situation but our troop dealt with it by getting the parents involved. But what of a scout who disagrees with Stosh of Calico on the minimum expectation of scout spirit? You would be surprised on what folks consider bullying. Adults usually get their way with disagreement between adults and scouts. I agree with stosh that scouts must be allowed to learn and growth by their own actions in the program. But somebody has to set the standard of expectations and even draw the line on a minimum expectation. That is supposed to be the SM. Sadly sometimes Scoutmasters are terrible examples and problems occur. But anyone who believes that the adults aren't part of the process of setting the expectation of scout spirit aren't understanding human behavior or the key component of role modeling in the scouting program. Whether you like it or not, scouts imitate the adults, even from 300 ft away. You don't believe it, start watching other units at summer camp next year. In this case, the CC is out of line in several ways. Not only is he not supposed to really be the passing judge of Scout Spirit, the CC isn't supposed to regulate the speed at which a scout advances. As Eagle94 said, there are other problems here. Barry

The Scout program was created to build character. It is designed so that a boy finds character by learning from choices he makes during the scouting activities. Is wearing the proper uniform to Troop meetings a right or wrong choice? He only has to open his Scout Handbook to find out. Not the SPL, not the PLC, not older scouts and certainly not the adults. The Scout Handbook has the quick simple answer. Barry

From: 30 Days to a Better Man Day Cultivate Your Gratitude The following story ran in a newspaper some years ago: The District of Columbia police auctioned off about 100 unclaimed bicycles Friday. “One dollar,†said an 11-year-old boy as the bidding opened on the first bike. The bidding, however, went much higher. “One dollar,†the boy repeated hopefully each time another bike came up. The auctioneer, who had been auctioning stolen or lost bikes for 43 years, noticed that the boy’s hopes seemed to soar higher whenever a racer-type bicycle was put up. Then there was just one racer left. The bidding went to eight dollars. “Sold to that boy over there for nine dollars!†said the auctioneer. He took eight dollars from his own pocket and asked the boy for his dollar. The youngster turned it over in pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters-took his bike, and started to leave. But he went only a few feet. Carefully parking his new possession, he went back, gratefully threw his arms around the auctioneer’s neck, and cried. When was the last time you felt gratitude as profoundly as this little boy did? Aesop said, “Gratitude is the sign of noble souls.†Indeed, gratitude is one of the hallmarks of a life lived well. It is a virtue that profoundly impacts your personal happiness and the quality of your relationships. We often assume that people either get thanks from other people or that they just somehow know how grateful we are for what they do. We are usually wrong on both counts. Gratitude is inextricably tied up with the virtue of humility. Gratitude shows that we’re paying attention to the acts of service people perform for us and that we truly understand how those acts make our life better, easier, and happier.

Over the years of watching 1000s of boys in scouting, I have concluded that prepubescent males think of responsibility as work and and adventure as fun. You tell us that you order your new scouts to pick a leader and figure it out. If they don' t like it, tough, figure it out. They don't know how to set up tents, they don't know how to cook, many are still afraid of the dark, but you order them to figure it out. And you don't think that style of scoutmastering is a type of adult run? I guess it could work, but you are scoutmastering your 3rd troop in roughly five years. I can't help but feel that you have left out 95% of how you run your troop. Certainly nobody here reading your posts could duplicate your claims by reading your thoughts of the process. If anything, your style sounds on the edge of abusive neglect. Maybe it just has to be seen to be understood. I need more meat with your potatoes to understand your vision. What is your vision? Barry

Yes, I think so. Kudu and I used to debate whether program success is a result of program application or program guidance. In other words, Kudu felt the program design was the main contributor to program success; where as I believe performance is more the result of how the SM guides the program. The BSA used mixed age patrols successfully until around 1990. The motivation to turn to NSPs was to slow down the drop out rate of the first year scouts, which happened to be, and still is the highest drop out group in the BSA program. And one intention for that change was in theory to shift the performance of the New Scout drop outs from the adults to the program design, which I agree in theory. But as it turns out, the first year drop out rate hasn't improves with NSPs. I believe the reason first year scouts drop out is because of the sudden paradigm shift of going from an adult lead life to being self responsible. NSPs don't really relieve that stress on the scout. The fallacy of the NSP is that the BSA and most adults believe age is 95 percent the reason scouts would want to hang together. Of course it seems natural that same age boys would have a draw to other boys their own age. And certainly boys who have been hanging around each other for five years in Cubs would want to hang together as well. However while those reasons may dominate the reason boys would hang together in an unfamiliar environment like the first night of a troop meeting with a bunch of older stranger scouts, boys aren't as simplistic as we would like to think. Most new scouts want to hang out with older scouts for a lot of reasons; one is that it makes them feel cool. Another is they feel a little more secure in their unfamiliar environment with older confident scouts. Older scouts are like older brothers. And friends? Well we found that while a whole den of Webelos may be friends, most have only one or two (mostly one) who they would need to feel comfortable in "any" patrol; mixed, same age or whatever. Just one. So yes I believe we over think it and take away some of the life growth and confidence building a boy can gain with an experience of starting a great experience with a few strangers. I also believe that success of building the confidence of new scouts to slow down their drop out depends largely on the SM, not the program design. I'm not trying start another discussion of adding to the syllabus, but I did spend a few minutes at SM Specific explaining why new scouts struggle with their new environment. I believe that while each SM will mold the program to fit their personality, I also believe that if they don't understand the fear of a new scouts, their success with new scouts will be about the same whether not matter what type of patrol they use. I have observe that very thing. That is not to say that one style isn't better than another, I have learn from experience that, at least with my style of scoutmastering, mixed age patrols perform much better over all. But as far as the success of preventing first year drop outs, I don't really believe it matters what patrol a scout joins. As far as growth is concerned, it matters a lot, especially after six months. That is why I like to spend a lot of our discussions helping scouters work better with the scouts. That is where the real difference is in the short run. Barry

Stosh, you are braggingly a self proclaimed Heretic. Whose doing the whining? Barry

When a scoutmaster signature is required, I don't rubberstamp anything, I use my power responsibily. I'm a mature smart adult who uses unbiased reasoning for judging such things. Demonizing adult responsibilities under the cover of "adult run" is a simplistic hostel way of trying to intimidate the conversation in one direction. The discussion is a lot more productive for everyone when discussing how to use the responsibility of the signature properly. Barry

I have worked with a lot of new adults and new troops, my experience is adults with a youth scouting experience are three years a head of adults without it. Adults who never experienced boy run rarely understand it or its advantages and never really get it. Their programs typically turn into advancement driven troops where the maximum age is around 14.There is only so much scout skills a scout can learn before the program gets boring. Adults with the youth scouting experience may struggle some at first with boy run because we have to get them past their parenting instinct, but they are so comfortable with the camping and scout skills part of the program, their scouts settle into the program much faster because they are having more fun with the adventure. I had a dozen Eagle ASMs while I was scoutmaster, I can't recall having to untrained any of them. I also found that adults with no scouting experience had to prove to themselves that they were worthy of being scouts. Their programs were basically their experiment to prove to themselves they were qualified to be scouts, which is one reason they were advance driven. Women Scoutmasters particularly struggled with this problem. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all volunteers and their time, but if I had my choice for starting a new troop with new leaders, give me adults with a youth scouting experience every time. We skip the hard stuff and move strait to working on scout growth.. Barry

Demonizing the adults again are you. The SM approval is a required part of the process. If the SM is a guide of taking care of your boys, then they are likely using the same wisdom in how they approve OA candidates. Barry

You are pretty wise for your age Sentinel. And I'm not saying that because your thoughts are basically the same as mine; ok maybe because they are the same as mine. Lol But I wanted to further your thought on getting volunteers; when it was observed that I had a talent for getting volunteers, the district started using me to fill committee positions. When Comittee Chairman asked me for my secret, I told him I simply asked them personally. I won't go into all the details of getting volunteers, everyone can refer back to your post. But you hit the high points well. Barry

It's unscout like to make accusations base from ignorance. Clearly you have less understanding of the UUA than I have. Disagreeing with speech is not a violation of the first amendment? You must be a young man, Cyclops, because your reactionary post is out of context. That's ok, we all grow from our experiences. But, character is also defined as much by appropriate inaction as it is action. Barry

Correct! Barry

Yes, your experience describes the Unitarian churches around here. But the religious awards is such a small part of the program, that families who valued the scouting program at all were willing to except that restriction. Members who claimed religious award was their reason for not considering scouts were likely not interested for other ideological reasons as well. The basis, I'm told, of the church is for individuals to find their own God. That is kind of an anti values approach to conservative spiritality anyway, so Unitarians in general struggle ideologically with the BSA program. Those accept the BSA program for what it is and represents in comparison with their personal spiritual beliefs would have likely joined anyways. This is what I learned from our Unitarian parents. Spiritality in the BSA is conservative in its nature, so it isn't as attractive to the more liberal ideological person. My fear is spiritual values, which are the foundation of the program vision, will be diluted over time from pressure of the culture. like the YMCA and Canadian Scouts, the BSA will turn into a weekend outdoor activities club for youth to just pass the time. Growth of character from a standard set value traits will be taught as anti individual and politically incorrect. Barry

I don't see how it helps, the only restriction on Unitarians was recognition of their church specific religion badge. We had a couple of Unitarian families in my troop. Any family that decided against scouting because of the restriction wasn't really wanting the scouting program anyway. Barry

I will take this since I'm one who tends to be more out spoken of unBSA program guidance on this forum. When posters start declaring standards BSA policies, procedures and guidelines as wrong or even hostel to the program, the scales have been tipped. When "one" suggest that SPLs are only good for scoutmasters who want to secretly manipulate the Patrol Leaders, I would say that is pretty much heresy material. When as poster suggest that the adult leader styles of mentoring, guiding and teaching taught in the BSA training only corrupts the scouting growth process, well that certainly isn't the BSA. I can't think of a single teacher/instrucotr from my early elementary years through college and then professional training courses where they didn't enhance the material with their own interpretation and experiences. So why is this a question here. Is it fair to ask a SM with 10 years experience not to color the material with some experiences? There is quite a difference proposing a scouting program that is counter to the BSA program as apposed to adding styles of context to the published BSA program. A simple test is to hypothetically hand all the materials to the Scouts and allow them to run the program with only the guidance of clarity, not direction. That is the true test of how much adults can influence their program. It would be one thing for a single patrol of scouts to decide not to use the SPL because it confuses the single patrol leadership structure. It is entirely different when the adult says SPLs are just spies for SM in adult run troops. I guess the real test of adding content to training is if the content helps the participants turn their program toward the BSA program, or away from the BSA program. That may be hard to judge in many cases, but it is quite obvious in others. I also believe that if a SM thinks they are being profound with the direction of their program, they likely have steered their program off the BSA reservation. We get into discussions of the best performing styles and policies on this forum. But that isn't really countering the BSA program. And the discussion can get challenging when some adults run their program purely by their personal theories. But when the adults are condescending to the leaders who are using the BSA program, then they have certainly tip the scale. Barry

Ah yes, well said. Barry

Oh, I don't know. Most scoutmasters don't set specific expectations for OA candidates like the PORs. Nether are OA expectations set in the unit leadership training or in the Scouts' Handbooks. Living the Scout Spirit is pretty much accepted as a constant all-the-time expectation. If the Scoutmaster feels the program has faltered in a minimum standard that should be expected for an OA candidate, he/she is not obligated to allow substandard behavior qualifications just because they weren't given a specific set of expectations six months prier. The Order of the Arrow doesn't want these types of scouts anymore than a Scoutmaster who doesn't want to send them. Barry

The scoutmaster exemplifies the character and integrity expected of the troop. Whether we like it or not, being the gatekeepers of Scout Spirit is part of the job. I'm not suggesting what you should do; age, maturity and experience must be part of the equation. I'm only saying that your actions are the standard by which everyone will know how they are to treat each other. Barry

You seem to be contradicting yourself by first agreeing with Stosh's point that all generations are the same, and then commenting that volunteers from older generations are better. I can understand your frustration with parents, but what you don' understand is that we have all been there; even the old generations. It's just part of the job. Of course we learn to become disappointed in our fellow neighbors, but that is the price we pay for being naive servants. In talking with my dad about scouts in the 30's and 40s, parents weren't any more involved in his generation than now. In fact they were involved less because the older generations didn't the 2 adult requirements. The SM was the only adult on most of his campouts. If there is a difference that stands, the youth in my dad's day (and myself really) had more independence from the parents. Thus there wasn't the helicoptering that we see today. Why is a different discussion. Maybe the frustration of todays volunteers is a result of them feeling the need for more help to run their boy run units. Maybe todays volunteers are more helicoptering than we realize. That thought leads to a whole lot of other discussions as well. Barry

What I was trying to do is help the adults understand when they were getting in the way of the growth intended during the scouting activities. First, they need to ask themselves what they think would happen if the adults weren't that situation. Most adults expect the worst and struggle to go forward even trying to get past their fear. Actually you see the effects of some fear in just about every unit. Common fears are allowing young scouts with older scouts because older scouts won't respect and even pick on them. How about the fear that older scouts don't like working with younger scouts, so the adults will go so far as to create a Venturing Crew to fix the problem. The fear may be as simple as adult checking each patrols menu because they don't trust scouts to do their own correctly. I was asked to help one new troop that was 90% female leaders. They didn't even let the scouts perform the opening ceremony at the troop meetings because they didn't feel like the boys had the maturity to perform it to the adults standards. So the adults did all the ceremonies for the boys hoping they would eventually learn by watching. Six months later nothing had changed. I help them through this by asking them to start addressing their fear bysimply teaching the scouts what to do and letting them try. It seems simple, but you would be amazed at how many adults would rather ignore getting past their fear and holding back the scouts. I know of one Scoutmaster who refused to let his scouts run a PLC meeting because he couldn't believe young scouts could run a meeting productively. He finally let them run the meeting when they were 14. The boys were so frustrated that they started dropping out. The Scoutmaster quit when he realized what was going on. As I said, all troops struggle with fear to some degree. A little bit is healthy, but when the program is held back as a result, a little guidance to get past their fears can help. I know I keep repeating myself, but typically the adults who where never scouts as a youth are the worst offenders. They just don't know what boys are capable of doing. So I gave them some advice encase they found their activities stalled. Barry

Good observation. I teach the whole syllabus as presented. But also I try to enrich the presentation with personal experiences to help the participants understand the objective better. However, I am very careful to not contradict or take away from any part of the syllabus or the intended purpose of the material. Barry