Eagledad

blw2, the behavior of older scouts start from what they know. The instinct is there, but knowledge is only what they observed in their past. Desire without knowledge is like running fast in the dark. The behaviors I wrote in my above post were taught to me by a good friend who is a professor in Child Psychology and a Scoutmaster. Over time I observed his teaching many hundreds of times. Older scouts behave exactly as the role models they watched the three or so years before puberty. I've said many times that the quality of a troop should be measured by the older scouts. What is observed in the older scouts is what will be observed from the scouts following them. If that is not desired, change it. We have so much power as troop leaders to build men of character and citizens of integrity if we only use that power correctly. Barry

I've also seen troops the way Stosh describes, but only in adult guided troops. And not that that is a good or bad thing, without older scouts, adults have limited options for developing growth. But adults who ignore ages and stages tend to struggle more with older scouts because they dont understand the power of human instinct. They tend to either push mature responsibilities on inmatures scouts who really aren't are ready for that much of a jump, or do all the responsible roles for the scouts. Natural instinct pushes prepubescent boys to hang in groups where they are safe from outside danger. Standing out is not instinctive unless they feel safe. And a boy run program isn't inherently safe in that context. Which is why the BSA looses more scouts during their first six months in the troop than any other time. Boys of this age instinctively make decisions based on their personal position (survival) in the situation of the moment. Its frustrating for some adults that young boys appear so selfish in their behavior, but it's just nature. Guidance through respected role models encourages real growth much faster than immediate correction motivated from impatience. The natural behavior of post puberty scouts is the opposite. Instincts drives them to step out of the herd or group and make individual decisions for the good of the group or herd. Imagine all those nature shows where the dominant males watch over the herd. The importance of the scout program is for younger scouts to learn the habits of post puberty behavior by watching the behavior of mature role models. Ideally we want young scouts to be immersed in the servant lifestyle based from the scout law and oath. It's amazing to watch, but once a scout reaches the age of maturity, he instinctively acts with a servant heart. And you find yourself in amazement that the program really does work. Barry

Exactly! Even on this forum we experts have different opinions on boy run, patrol method, NSPs, mixed age, same age, leader styles, elections, and on and on. As Hegdgehog said, open end question are best because the answers will describe the program. But even then the listener has to know something about the program. Our PLC meets every week without any adults. Many PLCs meet once a month with adults. Either method is acceptable depending on expectations and how the meeting led. Even more important is why troops use the methods and styles they use. Can the adults explain them any other way than "it's the way scouting has always done it." And quite frankly many families like the kind of programs some of us detest. I found leaving my biases out of the mix very challenging when our district was developing the program for helping Webelos families find the right troop. The internet can also be an excellent source for guidance depending on the sites; I used to refer Webelos leaders to this forum for learning more about troop programs, but not anymore. The "my way or the highway" tone here drives unexperienced newcomers away. It's better to find opportunities to educate them in district activities. Barry

No, it was not that at all. Shesh. Barry

I took the OPs question to be idealistic, so I haven't participated. Is eight a good starting place? Sure, why not. But as Beaverah points out, eight is just a starting place. But our troop has a reputation of being friendly toward sports and other big activities like band, so we typically experience a 25-35 percent reduction of attendance, depending on the season of sports. I confirmed that figure during January and summer when participation is highest because there is relatively no sports pulling scouts away at the time. In that culture, our scouts plan a head for the activities and experience in the troop. A football player plans to run for PL in the January. We had one scout plan his calendar to run for SPL a head 18 months to fit around his swimming team schedule. We see many players show up late friday night or early saturday after the their game. We adults figure that the troop can either fight for time in a boys busy schedule, or join them and welcome them when they can. We typically have 95% of scouts go to summer camp, which is an incredible number when you consider 45 percent of the troop is 14 and older. The patrol sizes bounce between 6 to 12 scouts. Ideal? I don't know, we adults honestly don't get involved unless we see some dramatic loss of growth. I'm sure their is some struggle, but with mixed age patrols, the maturity of the older scouts balances a lot of those struggles. As I said, 8 scouts is idealistic. Real life finds balance through experience. I think the question is where do we adults fit in that circle of life? Barry

The task of marketing a troop is challenging because the information given really depends on the audience. Parents don't really know what to look other than they want someone they can trust to leave their kids with for a week. Scouts want adventure, but what is that really. I asked all our Webelos one year a few moments they were about to crossover to their troop why they picked this troop over three others, they said this troop had the best game at the troop meeting. I am not a fan of leaving the decision up to the boys because they simply don't know either. Picking a troop should be a family decision or even a team decision with the Den Leader included with the family. As a result of my pack and troop experiences, our district developed opportunities for Webelos Den leaders to learn about troops, troop programs, differences patrol styles and patrol methods. We created some informal gatherings where Den Leaders and troop leaders could meet and talk. Most folks don't realize that 70% of Webelos leaders don't know single troop leader by name. It really is hard for them to visit troops because they don't know who to call, what to look for and what to say. The troops way a head are the ones with Den Chiefs. But even those den leaders still needs some coaching on the troop program. The first best step we learned from a district point of view is just a simple coffee and cookies meeting with Webelos Den leaders and Troop Leaders. Of course scouts are welcome, but really the goal is simply help the den leader get comfortable to just call for setting up a visit. One face to face meeting makes all the difference in the world. Barry

What do you want each scout to take with them from the program when they leave the troop? How often does the PLC meet? Who attends the PLC meeting? How are youth leaders selected? How often? How are patrols created and maintained? Describe the New Scout Program? How many scouts of each age? These are usually good discussion starters for learning about the program. Barry

That's how we do it. The first action of each new PLC is to review the already planned next six months and plan new activities for the following six months. That is how we get a committed annual calendar every six months. Annual calendar events are written in stone, so all other activities are planned around them. It makes it much easier for the patrols to plan their own calendar. Barry

We do this all the time. We find adults standing around and do a BOR. I guess that is why I don't understand Scoutmasters being concerned with strangers on EBORs. Our scouts likely sat with several strangers on all their BORs. Barry

The troop today is still using the design we created in 1995. We used a high quality cotton and I know that our shirts where cheaper than the BSA. I still wear my shirt now in then. That being said, we gave discounts to families with more than one boy, or anyone really who seem to struggle with the cost. The T-shirts weren't required uniforming, but most of the boys wanted one for showing pride of being the troop. Barry

Even if the non-Christian families don't have a problem? I approached our Jewish family on the subject once and the father interrupted me to say they don't have a problem with the troop services. His tone emphasized that they would rather us not change any part of the program for their family. Their sons (4 of them) are mature enough to participate without feeling as outsiders. I don't know why the tone, maybe they get more special treatment than they want. Barry

I also agree with Beaver about controlling distractions. We require all vehicle with more than four scouts include another adult who can deal with the distractions (scouts) while the driver stays focused on the road. For long trips, we always plan stops every two hours give everyone a break and to switch drivers. I'm not a fan of caravanning for some of the obvious reasons, but we do like at least two or three cars to travel within sight of each other in case a driver has mechanical problems or become ill. Barry

Ever since we converted to a backpacking troop, the only time are trailer is more than a 3rd full is traveling to summer camp. Even then it is mostly personal gear. Not only do we use only drivers with experience in towing trailers, our Quartermasters are trained as well in proper weight distribution and packing of the contents in the trailer, and hitching the trailer to the towing vehicle. The troop does not let the trailer leave the parking lot without the QM or someone trained by the QM because he has the keys and knowledge of proper use. Barry

Disagree? Hmmm, do I disagree? My point all along in the other discussion has been the program is quite capable of getting a scout prepared for the EBOR. Ok fine, some units have to deal with hostile boards, I understand that. Still, the message for scouters watching the forum for ideas needs to be that the program works and dealing with the un ordinary situation requires an unusual approach. To often we are driving topics to solutions that aren't necessarily practical in normal situations. But there are some adults who in one discussion brag about their personal hands on approach with scouts, and preach complete hands off in a another discussion. When the tone of the forum goes that direction, it looses integrity and those adults needing help move on. I love the ice cream analogy. It's clear and to the point and I'm sure it will be used long into the future by the few who read this forum. But it risk getting lost in the tall grass when the discussion gets in the details of defining responsibility and the adults role in the process. I would love a discussion of contributions that leads to simple applications that clarify how to use the ice cream cone analogy. But we never seem to get there anymore because we run into the wall of "my way or the highway" responses. And another great discussion dies off into another confusing gray area. I am asking for patience and respect of others contributions. Consider each suggestion as one of many to chose from, not only one. There are so many good ideas here. We should feel encouraged to contribute, not intimidated. Barry

This discussion might have more value if the Scoutmasters preaching about real leadership weren't also bragging in other discussions of coaching their same scouts through EBORs. They trust their scouts to lead through the chaos of patrol method, but they don't trust them enough to review their scouting experience to a board of strangers. I know, I know, I'm a cranky old man. But shesh, our discussions are really getting bizarre. We are making scouting way too hard for the average adult volunteer. Barry

Qwazse, I believe that the vast majority of Scoutmasters would say their program fits your model. Barry

The PLC in each troop models the SM vision of responsibility and leadership. And no two PLCs are a like. I'm not sure Bill could have written are more detailed recipe of success because it would have pushed many Scoutmasters beyond their ability to advance boy growth. Stosh has said many hundreds of times he does not respect the SPL because the PL should be recognized with the highest responsibility for the program. He also admits being forced to use an SPL when his first troop briefly grew too large for the PLs to manage. Maybe his question is more for himself to find solitude in his struggle to define the role of the SPL. I have suggested several times that the SPL responsibilities should be an opportunity for growth. Stosh can freely apply any growth he wants, but instead of trying to redefine the SPL for the scouters on the forum who use the SPL, further experiences with his own SPL might enlighten his vision. Barry

We solve this situation by encouraging scouts of different faiths to lead a service so the troop could observe different faith worships. It was an opportunity for growth. Our services are mostly canned, so most songs are faith neutral and the sermon is usually focused on the Oath and Law. So really the prayer is the only part of the service that has much of a faith based tone. Because the different different services seemed pretty much the same, dominating faith concerns quickly became a nonissue. Barry

How do you prep for the unknown? What ambush? Has one of your scouts failed an EBOR? You may have a good reason to prep for a specific situation, but as I said, I think the message to all scouter is that a quality program is the preparation for evaluating a scout's progress in the program. And politics? If nobody expresses concern about improper behavior at any level, how can it ever get changed? I always saw results by the Council and District when I submitted concerns. Barry

Even adults need to prepare for interviews and reviews in their lifetime. I'm not condemning prepping, but I do believe there is way to much focus in this discussion on prepping scouts to protect them. Of course there are a few bad examples of adults out of line, but they aren't the norm. The message in this discussion should be that the troop program should be sufficient preparation for an EBOR. How does the SM know if the program is sufficient? By the comments of scouts in the other rank BORs. Barry

Of course there is no room for absurd adult volunteerism, but if the Troop adults think of their Eagles as children, they will treat them as children. Think about that for a moment; Eagles are envisioned by the general public as the best and brightest scouts. The cream of the crop, the most skilled and best of character. If the adult leaders still think of these young men as children, shouldn't we call that helicopter scout leading? Barry

Well that's good, a lot of families left because of this non-issue. Barry

LOL My wife correlates going slow with being safer. And I can't change her. Probably the best car drivers are also motorcycle riders because they learn to be defensive in traffic, or die. Defensive driving isn't about speed, defensive driving is knowing the traffic around you and putting yourself in the least disruptive position. Pilots call it situational awareness. While situational awareness is an action, it is a servant action. Ironically for this forum, another appropriate term for situational awareness would be "taking care of the drivers around you". Barry

Since I'm not presently involved, I don't know if the program is stabilizing, stalling, thriving or whatever. What I do see is that the Boy Scouting is not on the front page of the news and discussed in the context of a political talking point. The decision to accept gay boys has for the moment calmed the activism against the movement. It's nice to have a discussions more about the boys. Barry

For many troops, the SPL is busy because he attends all the meetings and responsibilities for the unit leaders. In most summer camps, camp policies and information for the patrols are given to the unit leaders to pass down to their scouts. The SPL is that unit leader in some troops. Barry