Eagledad

This is interesting; that is a lot of conferences. I have a completely different perspective about MBs, so I'm curious what you discuss with the scouts before and after they complete the requirements. I used MBs as a tool for scouts to practice making independent decisions and working independently with other adults without Scoutmaster oversight. Of course I work with new scouts to insure they understand the process of finding counselors, communicating with them and filling out the paperwork properly. But they pretty much have that down after two or three badges. After that, I'm pretty much out-of-sight out-of m-mind. I personally think the Scoutmaster signature shouldn't be required after a scout completes the requirements because why should Scoutmasters care? I'm not saying my approach is better, just different. So I'm curious to learn what you discuss with the scouts before and after they complete the requirements. Especially the more experienced older scouts. Barry

This is a good discussion. The forum used to have many discussions about ranks and awards way back and they are a good review of what the books say instead of what we often assume. Thanks for the review, qwazse. As a result of these kinds of discussions (reviews), I got in the habit of calling Star through Palms "awards" instead of ranks. Award just seems to fit better to me because scouts in our troop are respected by their maturity and experience, not their rank. Not that rank shouldn't reflect a scout's maturity and experience, but sometimes rank is thrown in the mix of requirements for an activity or position of responsibility simply because it implies a seasoned well experienced scout, when in reality the "award" only acknowledges completing a list of requirements. The Eagle "award" is highly respected in our troop, but we have a lot of First Class, Star and Life scouts who are very respected for their experience and maturity. I hope we haven't brought any less honor to the Eagle and Palms than they deserve because we sure have a lot of them. But at the same time, those awards are not perceived as the pinnacles of our program either. Barry

If the adult leader is asking a forum for the answer, I would guess nobody is reading handbooks. Barry

I'm comfortable with the lessons I learned from our patrol method program. But as always, I will be open minded when you report back to us after a few years experience of scoutmastering 50 or more scouts. Barry

Managing money for a volunteer organization is as much a learning experience as learning to manage a boy run program. And, managing funds for a troop of five scouts is nothing like managing money for a troop of 50 in a single patrol method troop program of independent patrols. It just isn't the same. As the adult side grows and matures with patrol method in a large troop growing larger every year, the units philosophy of funds and savings will change as well because experience tends to push toward improving and streamlining the process. This goes as much for the scouts as the adults. My advice in these kinds of matters is for the adults to sit down and discuss what life lesson they want the scouts to experience. Then work from there. How does the troop expect to raise funds and how will the money be distributed among the scouts, troop, equipment, and so on. Each program is different. I have yet to see a troop that didn't change part of the process every couple of years to accommodate for changing needs. Our troop grew from 15 to 100 in seven years. Managing money in a boy run program that large requires understanding of goals and process of applying the funds because the unit that size handles A LOT of money. Whether it's the patrols or the adults doing most of the managing, everyone (parents included) needs to be on board of the process. Barry

My experience is different. Parents want the Eagle, once that is accomplished, they pretty much back off. But some scouts enjoy completing MBs and keep going. I think bling is condescending because it implies a reward without effort. The effort to earn a MB is the same after Eagle as it was before. Personally I'm glad each scout finds his ,so called bling, in our program because he is doing scouting stuff. We had a couple of scouts obsessed with having the lightest back packs. Another obsessed service projects. One scout loved planning activities and another liked creating outdoor recipes. They were going above and beyond everyone's expectations for their own personal enjoyment, IN OUR SCOUT PROGRAM. Is racking up a lot of MBs really that hard to understand. As for the National's recognition change, I wish they would leave well enough alone if for only the reason that a scout could have the same experience (bragging rights) as his grandpa. Of course Eagle requirements have changed over the years, but it is still pretty cool to see three or four generations of Eagles from the same family standing together. Barry

This is the same reason we prefer jungle boots over hiking boots. Jungle boots are typically designed to drain moisture out of the boot, most hiking boots do not and may or may not repel the moisture at all. I will say that cheaper the hiking boot the better for draining, but we have had scouts come home with their Walmart hiking boots being held together only by duct tape. Socks are just as important (if not more) for repelling the moisture away from the foot. Your feet will likely always be wet, but at least the skin will breath compared with cotton socks. I personally like Smartwool socks, but there are many brands of socks with materials designed specifically to push moisture away from the skin. They dry faster as well. Barry

It can be argued that when cynicism is pointed at other people, it is not being friendly, courteous or kind. It's nice to know we have a place to dump when we have a bad day, but there are limits to that as well. Barry

Hammers looking for nails This post came at a time I needed a laugh and I'm still laughing. Thanks Matt Barry

So then, why even change? Wouldn't you like to know the motivation for it when there isn't a call for it as far as I can tell? Barry

We eventually learned to have a meeting with the parents for this very reason. Summer camp is the first long term separation between the parents and their son and parents struggle with it just as much as the scout. So we told them that we understand the anxiety between the parents and the scouts and gave them basically the same guidelines on your list. We asked the parents to encourage their son to have as much fun as possible because they wanted to hear lots and lots of stories. It helps a lot. Barry

Thanks for bringing a smile to another old fool. It's a nice break from the cynicism. Barry

Ah the memories, Water Skiing was my first MB. The first thing we did was to learn how to drive the boat. And over the course of the badge, we learned how to pull skiers. I skill I've used for the rest of my life. Barry

I used to know what Palms were for, but this conversation has me wondering now. Doesn't the advancement awards prior to Eagle recognize a scouts hard work up to Eagle? And what exactly are we envisioning of a scout with Palms? Kind of funny, my take on Palms is adults like them because they recognize additional leadership. Scouts like Palms because they recognize additional Merit Badges. Some people just naturally enjoy working MBs, are they better Eagles? Or were those other Eagles just pencil whipped? What does that even mean? This is all too hard, why can't National just threaten going coed and leave the rest of the program well enough alone. Barry

I don't know, some members here struggle with "master" in Scoutmaster. If they can't get past that, how can they understand the adult/scout relationship? The concept that this is an adult program created to develop boys into citizens of character and leaders of integrity is just about out of reach of the understanding. AND WE WANT TO ADD GIRLS! Barry

LOL, he also didn't like uniforms, but admitted in the tent one night that he was proud to wear the Boy Scout uniform. I don't think he can explain his tolerance or acceptance of the hierarchical applications in the program either, but 20 years later he still tells me that scouting as an adult in our troop is one of his fondest memories. Maybe some hippies grow up. Barry

I believe Scoutmaster is very appropriate because Master describes the skills and abilities of the unit role model, mentor and guide. Master infers ability of skills in the style of a patient mentoring observer instead of directive leader. I believe the most power character trait of a adult scout leader is humility and the title Scoutmaster reflects that trait. I also feel that the title is a serious directive to owner of the position to take the role seriously. I admit, only a humble person would turn down the position if they felt their skills weren't acceptable for the needs of the scouts. Barry

Hmmm, Scout-American? We had one adult, (actually became an ASM) who was very offended by the term, Scout Leader. He admitted that he was a 60's hippy that learn to hate any type of authority, so any name with leader attached was offensive in his mind. So, how about Scouter-American. Barry

One aspect of training does have value to the program, it sets a standard of performance. For example, the units in our district over the years got in the habit of thinking that Scoutmaster Signature was only required on MB cards after the scouts was finished with the requirements, not before. The problem it created was the general misunderstanding that Scoutmasters could approve of disapprove the scouts performance of the requirements. We corrected the misunderstanding in training and within three years all units had the same understanding as National. Of course this feeds into TAHAWK's complaint that training doesn't sufficiently teach patrol method. That is because there isn't sufficient material for the instructors to understand the subject that they teaching. Barry

No, that is exactly my point. Fix the problem before adding complications to it. Barry

Maybe, but the parents generally start their kids in scouting, and generally for a different reason. My wife surprised me last week after she read news article in the paper about BSA considering coed. Without any discussion, her knee-jerk reaction was,"we would not have joined a coed Boy Scout program". She was also a Girl Scout leader with only bitter memories of that experience. Barry

So, you are proposing that if passing ships could have handed over their passengers with bailing buckets, the Titanic might have been saved. Hmm, an interesting approach to a successful business models. My engineering mindset just doesn't work that way. If something is failing because of a flawed design, the design needs to be changed, otherwise permanent failure is inevitable, no matter how many work-arounds are thrown at it. Work-arounds only add layers of confusion to finding the fix, if a search is even being conducted. Barry

Really! We usually had at least 2 female ASMs back in 1990s. Our committee was 45% female and typically our CC was female. Our Wood Badge course averages 50/50 male/female participants. Two of our 22 troops in the district had female Scoutmasters at the same time for a couple of years. We are pretty big district in a huge council, so that is a lot of females. I personally coached one female who earned Silver Beaver. She certainly wasn't the first. I kind of though we were normal with councils in the nation. Barry

Yes, that would be interesting to learn as well. Here is what I know through research, the old Wood Badge course (one example) was designed to teach experienced scouters new methods for teaching scouts. It is that simple. But I remember talking to a Council Wood Badge Course director in 1995 who was frustrated because even the staff resisted the purpose of the course mainly showing teaching techniques and styles. He said that even then the newer generation of staff was becoming more focused on the scouts skills and patrol activities part of the course than the teaching skills part. Nationally, the BSA was finding that adults were going back and turning their troops into copies of the Wood Badge program. Even to the detail that adults were eating meals with the scouts, just like in the course, but not for the same reason. The course syllabus was completely changed. It wasn't just females who were the problem of course, many males without a scouting background were joining the program as well. But, they were a smaller minority before the induction of females and could be assimilated into troop program easily because most of the leaders were experienced. It's uncomfortable talking about female leaders like this because some of them are the hardest most dedicated volunteers in scouting. Many are very close friends who are highly respected. I worked and advised four female Scoutmasters guiding them in patrol method and the value of it's purpose. I'm sure you are right, I have been out long enough that I couldn't give a fair observation. A LOT of things are contributing to it's decline, but National is also doing harm to itself. One thing that is important to understand is that 95% of troop membership (give or take) comes from the Packs. If the pack program fails, the rest of scouting fails. And I think most pack leaders will tell you the program is hard work for adults. And it shouldn't be. Without getting into the details again, adult leader burnout is killing the pack program. It's even predictable. When National change the Tiger program in 2000 to required more adult volunteer time, not less, we predicted that the Troop membership would show a decline in about five years. And it did. If the National wants to at least slow down the membership decline, they need to start at the bottom, the pack program. It needs some bold changes. Help the packs and you will help the troops and venturing. Barry

This is reflective of "one" of my concerns. I believe the boy run or patrol method (which ever you want to call it) took a big hit when females were brought in at the troop level. Not because they were female, but because they were a large portion of the adult membership without a youth scouting experience. In my experience, troops of adult leaders with a youth scouting experience have a three year jump on adults without that experience. Scouters with experience simply know how to apply the game to the purpose. Scouters without experience tend focus too much on the purpose and loose the fun of the game. I believe going coed with increase the percentage of unexperienced scouters even farther and push the benefits of patrol method even farther out of the program. Ideally the young women will eventually become scout leaders of the future and percentage of experienced scouters will grow. But I believe that is twenty years down the road and the program will be so watered down by then, Patrol method will be little more than the small groups the scouts are placed in. The benefit of experiences for making independent choices without outside influence will be gone. To survive, the program will reshape itself so that the youth are having fun and want to continue scouting. But I see the impact of the character growth side of the present program greatly diluted. Some folks here believe resistance of change is base more from tradition than performance. Being conservative because they are conservative in nature. But learning life by experiencing life is a method of teaching in simple program of outdoor activities is the heart the program, not the outdoors activities themselves. The fear of progressive changes isn't in the tradition of the outdoor program, but in loosing the tool for learning from experience. I have other concerns with a coed program, but if somehow I was assured that the part of the program where the scouts are given the independence of making decisions without an outside influence was still primary to the program, I would feel more ease about going coed. That would require a very strong team of professionals at National who not only understand the power of independence in the program, but the will to resist change away from it. I'm not confident that adults who prohibit carts wagons on camp outs are the right team. Barry