Eagledad

Your idea isn't new; the BSA has made these kinds of promises since the creation of the program. I do agree that at this age, cost isn't as much of an issue as the cub program, but a results-based program is very subjective. And most of the time the adults go the easy route of Eagle for their results-based program. However, youth at this age aren't advancement-driven. I found that most Eagle-driven programs lose 70% of their scouts by age 15 because advancement gets boring. Adventure-driven programs thrive because they are fun in the outdoors, and because independence in the patrol method drives more maturity in their growth. Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating. Barry

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry

Are the fees the same for Cubs? Young parents have many program choices during the Tiger and Wolf years, and costs drive many of their choices. Barry

Yes, Fred is right. It depends on the adults and the program and if the program fits you. I did study some of this stuff when I was the District Membership chair. In general, programs are based from the level of passion by the adults who manage the program. That can be good and bad, but in typically the top 15% of the programs managed by the most passionate adults, and have gift for selling the program. You have to visit the unit to see if it is a good fit. Barry

Many of us have been active and have developed reputations on this forum long before this discussion. Barry

Hard to tell; there were, and still are, BSA haters on the forum who were glad to push facts and unproven statements to make the BSA look bad. Barry

Parents are the most challenging part of Scoutmastering. National should create a course to prepare for how to respond to them. It takes practice. We had a few families leave because we didn't budge on our program philosophy. One mother took her new tenderfoot son out because I wouldn't delegate him as the Patrol Leader. But we lost several scouts because of our approach to Eagle. And, the parents of the ones who stayed despite their parents' wishes would never speak to me again, even when I ran into them at the grocery store. Barry

This is the normal response from new leaders because their parenting nature is reacting to the situation. Most new leaders have to be retrained in a scout-run program. We approached this in several ways, including having the scout read and use the Scout Handbook. When I taught Scoutmaster Basic back in the day, the two most asked questions were discipline and uniform. My answer to the uniform question was the Scout Handbook. If the scout knows the uniform policy, they also know when they're not following it. They are making a bad choice. Don't hound them about proper uniform; ask them if they made the right choice. But really, it should be the PL who asks. Honestly, I wanted to see how the scouts dressed. Often, it shows a state of mind. Often, it shows a scout struggling at home. Another way we got new adults used to the scout run program was by restricting the adults from putting up the scout sign to get the group's attention. Adults rarely need to get the group's attention in a Scout Run program because they are in the background. However, if an adult is being used as a resource to explain a skill and needs to get the group's attention (because they are boring), then the adult asks the nearest youth leader to get the group's attention. Likely, the scout will put up the sign, and the adult will follow in support of the youth leader's direction. There are other ways to train adults to let scouts make their own decisions, but honestly, it is a matter of mindset or a culture that respects scouts as equals to adults. Adults wouldn't treat other adults as some treat scouts as youth. The faster adults start treating scouts as equals, the faster the culture of trust changes. And the results are amazing. Scouts have to get used to it also; they have been led by adults all their life, so they just can't turn a switch to change. Trust comes from continued actions by both the adults and scouts. Practice. Barry

Well, this is very cool. Our experience with similar situations is that leadership will struggle for a bit until they get their feet under them, which is OK because we humans learn better in our struggles. But, you might team up with your Eagle and monitor the patrols to see if an ad-hoc training session might help in an area where the patrols are struggling. I found that a 15 minute training moment at the PLC meeting can often be an AH HA moment for PLs. After reading your post, I smiled at the memories, and I remember why I love this scouting stuff. Barry

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

Yep. I'm convinced that those at National haven't a clue how to develop young people into ethical and moral decision makers. Has DEI killed the Boy Scouts? Leadership development in scouting is passive form of learning. Good leaders make good role models for good leadership. The folks at National are reacting the same as the Girls Scouts national leaders when they lost the understanding of how to build character. Like the BSA, they started promising leadership as a virtue of the program. They believe that giving a scout a chance to lead makes them a leader. Ironically, I believe that the GSUSA has a better chance of giving a patrol method program now because they don't have boys to dilute their program to make everyone happy. But, like BSA National, they don't know how to implement it. Barry

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I saw a discussion on another forum a few weeks ago about a troop at summer camp picking the SPL for summer camp. The troop was split into a boys program and a separate girls program. There was an assumption the troop would have 2 SPLs during the summer camp, but the SM picked only one SPL from the boys troop. I'm sure there was more to this, but you can guess how the discussion went. The SM was assumed to be old-school and out of touch with today's program. Only I stood up for a SM who would use a single leader to for the whole troop. Because the boys SPL was selected, the forum participants automatically assumed the SM was anti female. And they called him old-school because he refused two SPLs. They could’not, wouldn’t, consider the gender might not have anything to do with the decision. It took me years to develop the sales technique for selling parents the BSA patrol method program where their sons came home from camps a different more mature person. I can't even imagine selling that program to adults who are more concerned about equal gender presentation in a program where the Aims and Methods have nothing to do with gender. I watched 100s of really wonderful adults grow from our program. The program of scouts learning from the good and bad choices works. I'm thinking of changing my Scouter.com title to Old_School_SM, and wearing it with pride. Barry

Hmm, nothing like adults meddling in scouts business. Merit badge requirements are between the scout and the counselor. Also, when adults start talking about shortcuts, they are mentoring shortcuts to the scouts. We must be careful that we don’t teach advancement over adventure. Sounds like a great campout. I’m jealous. Barry

I’ve trained many scoutmasters of new troops and my First step advice is put down the SM Handbook and get the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook. Those two handbooks have the same information as SM Handbook without the adult baggage. They are fast reads and basic enough to layout a plan for the next few months of your program. You will find the scouts and adults will bond faster when everyone is working as a team with the same instruction guides. And get ready, you are embarking on the most confounding and rewarding endeavor of your life. i love this scouting stuff. Barry

I don't understand. It appears your troop is a lifeboat for this scout and scouts like him. Our troop averaged one scout transfer per month because of our program reputation. Many were friends of scouts in our troop. Council often referred out-of-state transfers to us . These scouts lack of skills can be challenging, but I always found them and their parents enthusiastic and great supporters for our program. I'm so thankful for your service. Barry

Not surprised, not a single person in the Pentagon was a member of Scouting America. Barry

Back in the day, when I was trying to save the world, I sought the commissioners' help in identifying issues that were undermining the program, such as losing over 50% of Webelos before crossover (the National Average). The short story is not just NO, but..... If the commissioners could visit a unit once every two months to just observe casually what the Dens and patrols are doing, then they could report their observations to the District Commissioner (DC). If the DC identifies a trend, the district can then approach a solution, such as training. Of course, that approach requires identifying levels of performance and methods for working below minimum performance. If judging unit performance is not expressed correctly, then yes, observing units will appear to be overstepping. I've been there. But it can work. One DC friend ran the UC corps successfully in the largest district in Minnesota. He addressed problems quickly and with compassion. A good UC corps starts with a good DC. In my opinion, the DC is the most critical Key Three position. They require a big-picture understanding of the scouting program and how the units fit in the model. Then, they develop a district program to help unit leaders enhance their unit performance within that model. Most districts take the first person that says yes to the UC position, but more often than not, they aren't qualified. First, the district needs to find someone who is a good recruiter; it's a skill. They will find a qualified UC. Barry

Well, the program isn’t making it any easier, google “Boy Scouts woke” and there is very little positive responses from all sides of the spectrum. The program is caught on a cultural yoyo that makes it difficult for anyone to discuss. My wife and I travel internationally quite a bit and I often find myself bragging about the benefits of scouting I observed from my experience. I have found folks of all backgrounds and nationalities are intrigued with the scout program and want something like it for their community. I don’t step into the resent changes because I don’t want to turn the discussion political. I like to leave it positive. Barry

Great post, thanks. i used to teach the same approach. I believe the SM should have a feel for how a scout is doing before they are ready for the BOR. Like courious scouter, I may have signed off his SMC long before he completed the other requirements. For me, scouting is about personal growth. Some scouts have grown a lot, but they are in no hurry for advancement and that’s fine with me. I tend to have a good feel for simply by finding opportunities to have a quick chat asking how it was going. We might have something in common and I would bring that up or ask how a new patrol mate is dong. You can learn a lot about scouts at a SM conference, but few small chats tells you pretty much what you need to know. You can sign their book if they have it, or during a conference they request and use that opportunity to brag about them. Our CC told me of one scout during his BOR who didn’t remember having a SM conference with me after lunch earlier that day. When she reminded him of our chat while I bought him an ice cream bar, he was surprised to learn that was a SM conference. He just asked me how baseball was going. Any excuse to have an enjoyable chat with a scout. If I knew a scout was having a challenge with the scouting experience, I would try to get them to discuss it, and then I might ask if they felt they were ready for the advancement. Sometimes they would say no and set a goal to prove themselves. Even better when they want to grow. The sign off is important, but if it’s also fun, I can say 25 years later, it’s memorable. Barry

Thank you kindly. It’s a simple philosophy that everyone should go home feeling good about their scouting experience. Barry

It's really up to the Course Leader. I approved several leaders working together. I wanted the leaders to grow in the area they would be working. I am not sure why you wanted to work with Cubs if your mainly working for scouts. But, I would have been open minded. I did help adult shift their thinking of what they were going to do for the units. You would be amazed at how many adults aren't given expectations for helping their unit. A lot of units are running like well oil machines, so they aren't looking specific volunteers. I often worked with them on tickets to learn how patrol method worked and how adults should work in that format. They really enjoyed it. On troop leader had was very limited with his volunteering time time. He was a CEO and spent a lot of time working with teams for development. We came to the conclusion that he would work great on the district committee in planning with his limited time. So we designed his tickets toward working with the committee. There is no doubt he would be running the Committee in a year or two. He had rare skills that every district would want. So really the answer the expectation Tickets depends on the WB team. They are all different. Barry

I asked because I believe when done correctly, the ticket experience has the most impact for the participants. I agree tickets can get out of control and add very little growth to the scouter’s scouting career. I also was given ticket items approval responsibility and was able to counsel participants and TGs to simpler Ticket Items that enhanced their volunteer experience more directly. I was glad to help and counsel any participant who felt stress with their tickets. The experience really should be fun and something that add excitement. Many folks aren’t creative and struggle with Ticket Items, so I had enjoyable discussions with them to learn about their goals for scouting and then we discussed simple ideas for growing towards their goals. One new SM was struggling with his role for PLC meetings, so he created a ticket item to visit and observe PLC meetings of 5 other troops. One CM was also the Webelos leader and Tiger leader. So we created a Ticket item to recruit a Tiger and Webelos leader so she could focus on what she wanted to do, Cubmaster. I know sounds obvious to many that she should have done that in the first place, but things often happen that complicate our lives in such a way we done see it happening. Then suddenly we are overwhelmed and the fun is gone. When the fun is gone, scouts suffer the most. Most scouts leave because of boredom. Many districts use WB ticket items to source event leaders like camporees, which often lead to inexperienced adults planning complicated events that give scouts a terrible experience. I didn’t approve any event planning unless the participants could prove they had previous successful experience, and it would be a fun growing experience for their future scouting career. Scouting is supposed to be fun and the WB ticket items experience should be a highlight of growing as a Scout Leader. I had motto for both the scouts and adults; If it’s not fun, change it. Barry

What are your Ticket Items? Barry

Any SPL handbook works, too. In fact, I required all the SMs in my Scoutmaster Specific class to have one to use with the PLC for coordinating expectations. A team should work from the same book. Think of it as a condensed version of an SM Handbook. Barry