Eagle732

Moosetracker: "Let's just say you suggested that with this comment; ""All of my Eagles have used the time during their ceremonies to thank everyone who helped them, not make political statements."" Moosetracker, I did not suggest that at all. I merely made the statement that my scouts have only thanked people for their support, not made political statements. I always try to be respectful here, even if I don't agree with someones opinion. I would hope you could offer the same by not misrepresenting what I said.

Does this mean all of us poor unenlightened will have to "evolve"?

I really didn't mind signing 150 blue cards TWICE! (sign up and completion) last month at summer camp. I'm proud the boys took it upon themselves to earn as many merit badges as they did.

My rule is that adults pitch in on setting up and breaking down camp as long as all scouts are helping. If I see scouts starting to drift away from the work or goofing off I quitely let the adults know it's time to stop helping.

After my last email I got another email requesting that I call National Supply. They were very receptive and offered to take the books back and reimburse us for shipping. I'm now waiting on an email with an address so I can send them. Supply said that every once in awhile they get a bad batch, they know about the problem, and they think they have addressed it. They also said the council shop would not take them back.

At least the pages won't fall out of a Kindle! Several have mentioned that the book is a good resource and will bring back memories in the years to come. Too bad today's book will not be around for that, they'll be in the trash after they fell apart.

My reply to National: "If I'm the judge of your products then it is my opinion that your current run of handbooks is defective. I have purchased handbooks for the scouts in my troop for 6 years. I noticed that the books purchased for the group of scouts who joined in March 2011 began to fall apart after a few months use. This trend continues with the books purchased this last March. I have read you promise (http://www.scoutstuff.org/retail/customer-service) which states in part "you can either exchange the item for a replacement or receive a full and complete refund. No questions asked" Your guarantee posted on the scoutstuff.org website does not mention shipping fees nor does it mention that the guarantee is limited to online store purchases. I would like to exchange these books at my local council shop but they refused when after I was asked if the books were written in any I said yes. Apparently they don't subscribe to the "if for any reason you are dissatisfied" and the "no questions asked" part of BSA's promise. Thank you"

My troop has always bought books for new scouts. We just started seeing this problem about two years ago. My son's book which is 5 years old is fine. My book which is 45 years old is still good. Today's books just are not holding up to typical scout use. I received this reply from National: "You are the final judge of our products. If, for any reason, you are dissatisfied with any item purchased from the Boy Scouts of America, you can either exchange the item for a replacement or receive a full and complete refund. No questions asked. You can return or exchange any item purchased through any Boy Scouts of America online store by mail. Timeline for returns: If, at any time, you are not completely satisfied with your purchase, simply exchange it or return it to us for a refund. Refunding Shipping and Handling Charges: Unfortunately, we cannot refund original shipping and handling charges placed on catalog or online orders. Scoutstuff.org" Since the books were bought at my council's scout shop they don't seem to be covered. And since council is not interested in dealing with the problem it looks like a dead end.

Made a call to my council's scout shop. The initial response is that if the books have writing in them they will not allow them to be returned. The call went like this: Me: "Can I return a handbook that's falling apart?" Scout Shop: "Is there writing in the book?" Me: "Of course there is, the boys use them, but they're falling apart." SS: "Sorry we can't take books back if they have writing in them." Me: "But I thought BSA had a satisfaction guarantee on their products." SS: "Sorry, we can't take books with writing in them back." BSA statement on scoutstuff.org " If, for any reason, you are dissatisfied with any item purchased from the Boy Scouts of America, you can either exchange the item for a replacement or receive a full and complete refund. No questions asked." I have an email in to the National Scout Shop's customer service. We'll see if I get an answer. (This message has been edited by Eagle732)(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Our troop purchases handbooks for all new scouts but after no more than 6 months of normal use they are falling apart. the binding fails and the pages start falling out. I wonder if National is aware of the fact that these books fall apart after a few months? All BSA products have a lifetime warranty. The Scoutstuff.org website says " If, for any reason, you are dissatisfied with any item purchased from the Boy Scouts of America, you can either exchange the item for a replacement or receive a full and complete refund. No questions asked." Maybe we should have scouts return the book for a replacement. Anyone done that?

I second what Twocubdad says. My unit has the same policies. Our troop provides a book to each new scout so there's no excuse for not having one. We also recommend that scouts make a copy of the sign off pages occasionally as a back up in case the book gets lost.

How is the scout suppose to keep track of his record without a handbook? Are you going to record every requirement for every scout every time he completes one? Of course just about any system would be an improvement as long as it doesn't involve the lousy handbook they use today. Everyone I see is falling apart after 6 months of use.

"let him know there's an old fart in Steeler country who would happily kick him to the curb if he doesn't shape up" That explains everything. I'm not into kicking kids to the curb. But hey you run your unit (assuming you have one) and I'll run mine.

"What's wrong with last minute requests? Half our projects occur during campouts." What I'm talking about is the service projects that the entire troop take part in that are outside of regularly scheduled troop activities. These usually are projects that assist other organizations. An example would be to help with parking at a community event. The event organizers need to contact the troop at least 30 days in advance. That's our policy. We've had too many instances where organizations who had an event scheduled for a year in advance that neglected to ask until a week prior to the event. An opportunity to do some community service during a camping trip does not pose the same scheduling and logistic problems as a service project scheduled outside a troop activity. Here's our procedure and the reason why we don't take on these projects on short notice and how it adds up to 30 days. Week 1: There can be up to a five (working) day wait until we even get a chance to bring it up for a PLC vote at the next meeting (request on Monday, PLC meets on Sunday). Weeks 2 and 3: We require permission slips for all activities outside the meeting place and probably will need to submit a tour plan. Permission slips go out at one meeting and will be returned the next. (2 weeks time just doing this). The PLC will promote the service project during this time. Week 4 (maybe). We don't have troop meetings during camping weekends (we meet on Sundays) so that can add another week to the timeline. This is why we need 30 days. We've found that the more notice we can give to scouts and their families the greater participation we have. (This message has been edited by Eagle732)

A few points: I routinely sign off both 2nd and 1st Class swimming requirement for when a scout completes the BSA Swimmer test. He doesn't need to do it twice. We have to keep track of hours because the current requirements state a certain number of hours are needed. However we can (and should) encourage the spirit of community service by providing opportunities and educating our scouts on why each service project is important. My troop has a committee member that oversees service projects, he screens project requests. We had to set some standards for projects and start screening after being overwhelmed with last minute requests. Now we don't even consider a service project without 30 days notice. Also we never schedule in conflict with a camping trip or other activity.

I've never felt like I've been exploited by anyone involved with a scouting project. Well maybe a little after a FOS presentation

All points are well taken, thanks everyone. I feel that when my scouts get to the Star and above level they should be doing more than trying to figure out ways to do the minimum. I call it Scout spirit. I'll probably ask the scout what he thinks he should do. I'm pretty sure he'll come up with the right answer even if I have to use my SM skills to guide him. And it's not like we don't to plenty of community service, so there's plenty of opportunities. He'll probably get the 6 hours for Star just by being active.

Scout is working on Star and needs 6 hours service. He's also working in Cit. in the Community and needs to do requirement 7c which states: "While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization." So does service for Cit/Comm service hours also count for Star service hours? I'm inclined to say no but what's your opinion?

USAFgunner. BSA needs leaders like you. Instead of loosing faith fight to make it better. I'm sure you can find a unit that needs your skills. The reason why boys don't learn the outdoors skills today is because many leaders have little or no outdoor experience. One of the best SMs I know is a disabled Vietnam vet and retired state park ranger. When he teaches plant and animal identification the boys are fascinated. My number 1 go to ASM is a retired Army colonel, he's tough on the boys but they love him. Find a unit that appreciates your skills and help some boys.

Eaglemom2b, Many of us here have been leading units and arranging outings for years. You're not going to get a lot of sympathy for not being flexible and accepting the travel arrangements offered. Especially when your son was coming a day late. (Is your unit scheduling camping trips during school days?) It doesn't sound like anyone took preference over a Scout, sounds like your unit was trying to accommodate everyone. Signing up the day before by the Venture girls seems to be a troop issue, maybe your unit needs to review it's camping trip sign up policy. That's a committee problem. You were concerned about your son riding with two girls in the back seat even though there were enough seat belts. That seems to be your problem. Sorry, but if you came to me with this complaint I would offer you your money back? By the way did you get a refund?

"we enjoy working together and giving service to the community together. We have a good time. " CHEERFUL SERVICE! You do have the OA spirit BSA24.

The rule in my unit is that Scouters are expected to live up to the same Scout Oath and Law as our Scouts. Covers just about everything.

Scheduling conflict? Sometimes we have to make choices. Good lesson for your son to learn. Troops can do joint trips with other units. As far as the car ride goes, Youth Protect requires no one on one contact. Even one leader in a car with one other scout passes the test. Sometimes travel is crowded but did everyone have a seat belt? If so then not going because it was crowded (uncomfortable) was your choice. So I guess you didn't want to drive him 5.5 hours?(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Never said he DIDN'T thank people, did I?

It's easy to drop your membership in OA, just don't pay your dues. Of course you could always mail your sash to your Lodge Chief in protest:) I'll repeat what I said earlier: You call it free labor, I call it cheerful service. I guess it all depends on you perspective. OA promotes camping. Helping your local camp prepare for summer camp seems to me to be part of promoting camping.