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  • #46
    I still contend that the BSA needs an Advanced Outdoor Leadership course required to draw a High adventure tour permit. IOLS should be required for ASM's.


    • King Ding Dong
      King Ding Dong commented
      Editing a comment
      It should be required so we don't get lost on a hike on a council reservation with faded trail markers and maps with lakes that dried up 25 years ago. 10% of male population is color blind to some degree.

    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      KDD some of us take our boys to places with out fences......There are no trail signs.....You have a topo map and a compass, Gps as well....

      It is possible to get lost where we backpack.....but honestly we could walk in one direction for a day and hit a road...

      Sorry to hear your troop is limited to boy scout camps and city parks.

      Adventure is out there my friend you just need to look for it in a boys eyes.

      A lot of scout leaders make great decisions outdoors....

      But how many times have we had headlines like these

      so is that RichardB in that last one

      The problem we have is cube dwellers and fluffy body type boys go out and get in over their heads...... Of course they have no idea what their limits are????

      We have adults who have minimal outdoor experience taking troops to places they have no business being........

      Then the entire outdoor courtesy and ethics problem. Entire troops using area that limit group size.......

  • #47
    There is something to be said for cub scouts camping in someone's backyard.
    There also something to be said for Webelos scouts camping in a city park.
    As the adventure progresses, then we have boy scouts doing back country backpacking, canoe camping, and Philmont.

    Not all adults can effectively follow their boys through the program and not all units have adult leadership skilled enough to provide opportunities for real high adventure.

    Like the boys, the leaders need to get the training and skills to be able to not only push the envelop for themselves but to provide opportunity for the boys to push.

    Is it any wonder boys don't find adventure in car camping and the 7th trip to the local scout camp? Where are the boys that fit this situation? All over the place.

    Since I left the unit leadership, the first thing I noticed is the level of adventure I am doing now at 62 years of age is higher than 95% of the troops in my area.



    • #48
      At the moment, I'm in the middle of the Woodbadge course in Vermont, started last weekend. So I'm a bit biased, maybe.

      Two years ago the Course Director talked up WB way too much and recruited me heavily, to the point where I was turned off and said "not yet." Experienced adults my troop who'd taken in Council agreed that I should wait until I was ready (because I'd get more from it, not because of that Director). Once I knew who the Director was this time, I signed up.

      I don't know about how they do the program where you are, but I would rate the content and delivery of this course very highly.

      That's even though I was a Scout for 10 years, did Junior Leader Training (Council version of NYLT in my day) and have been an ASM for 5 years. I've also had plenty of professional training, including project management, team-building, negotiations, an MBA from a major university. Yes, I've learned some of the concepts before, but learning with this group, in the Scouting context, then applying it both during the training weekend and the "break month" is really bringing the concepts home for me. My patrol is mixed but we're all learning from each other.

      As to the Woodbadger who said "My ticket was stuff I was going to do anyhow....", who wrote those tickets? When a friend in my course said he was encouraged to take that easy way out, my stomach churned, because he's got much more potential. If you don't do anything different than what you would have anyway, how can ANYONE benefit? How could you be so lazy and then blame the course? The failure is your own, no one else's. I'm normally pretty lazy, but I know I'll only get out of it what I put in. If I don't stretch myself then the boys in my troop won't benefit either, which is why I went.

      Life is what you make it. Given solid course material and good trainers (our are excellent), WB is what you make it.


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        All courses are not created equal.

        Not all tickets are created equal....

        Since you quoted don't know me from adam......I know for a fact that my ticket was the toughest in my patrol, as a matter of fact the SPL's son was in the course and a staff member came to our campsite and dictated his ticket to him. If you dig deep enough you can find where I posted it. It was crappy stuff like lose weight or date night with the wife or stupid crap like that.

      • qwazse
        qwazse commented
        Editing a comment
        Like you, I put off going until I was ready to put up with the demands of the course. I'm sure that was a factor in my success.

        Don't disrespect the "going to do anyway" smack. There are lots of things that we think we're going to do anyway, and they don't get done. During my 18 months I was advising my crew in going to Seabase Bahamas, it wasn't a ticket item because I felt it was "routine", but it consumed 2/3rds of the 18 months allotted to work my ticket. Several of my goals (the diversity one comes to mind) would have been more successful if I had incorporated them into that super-activity. That didn't happen because I was too proud and wanted things on my ticket that I had no time to even start until the "big rock" was out of the way.

    • #49
      Fellow Scouters,

      A late reply, but if I can offer my comments about Why Wood Badge.

      I attended WB for Boy Scout Leaders 25 years ago as a young ASM and have served five staff experiences with WBforBSL and WB21C, one staff for JLTC and two staff experience for NYLT. I'll reserve my opinions about the changes between the old and new courses for another post.

      What I have seen. Some elitism and some forget the bottom line, with too many games and clubs recently. Some serve their Pack, Troop, Team, Crew or District, bringing new programs that may have been completed skipped by unit leadership or reviving advancement programs that were forgotten. Similar to DanBrew's post, it is the effect a WB learner has on the Scouting unit. It is not the leadership courses that a person may have already experienced or outdoor skills which they have already mastered.

      For some Scouters, WB21C is a waste of time. Their Scouting unit will benefit very little.

      But... For other Scouters, Wood Badge has benefited their youth! Where the percentage separation is, I cannot estimate. I can state that I have witnessed lack of positive results and selfish agendas, and also witnessed some tremendous work with Scouts learning Citizenship, Character and Fitness. Some Scouts experiencing unique learning for the first time. Some Scouts considering future careers they have been exposed to, as a result of a dedicated leader attending Wood Badge.

      Why Wood Badge? In my opinion, Wood Badge is worth it, when it benefits a youth.



      • #50
        Why would anyone take WB for any other reasonthan for the boys? Well maybe as an ego trip...


        • SR540Beaver
          SR540Beaver commented
          Editing a comment
          We've all seen those people. Everything they do is an ego trip, not just WB. Anthony Weiner comes to mind. Me personally, I can find much easier and cheaper ways to stroke my ego than using vacation days to take a course from sunup to sundown, while living in a tent and cooking on a coleman stove. I guess it just depends on how big someone's ego is. Again, Anthony Weiner comes to mind. LOL

      • #51
        I took Wood Badge because I believe it is incumbent on all adult leaders in the program to avail themselves of training, and this was described as the "mountaintop experience." However, it is much more "how to succeed in your job" than "how to be a better scout leader." I can't say I've put much of it to use as an ASM.

        The biggest benefit to having done Wood Badge is the people I have met who have proven to be valuable resources. I have found new opportunities for our scouts that I did not know were out there and have brought additional resources to the troop as well. It is possible that this could have been done over time through regular networking, roundtables, etc., but it was more likely to happen through the course setting. I keep in regular contact with one of my patrol-mates as well as our Troop Guide from the course.
        Last edited by Brewmeister; 08-29-2013, 03:57 PM.


        • #52
          What was that saying, "you can lead a horse to water...?" . Like I said, this is what they wrote, some are enthused, some not so. I met one man who was from New Jersey (the course was in Virginia), who seemed to do WB as a hobby. He told me this was his tenth (!) WB course he had attended. He just liked camping and the commeraderie, I guess. I asked him, did he do more "tickets", too? He said no, after his first course, the WB served to help restoke his "Scouting fires" (his words).
          It can be fun, it can be instructional, it can "certify" you know certain stuff, it's like any other instructional course.
          It can be *yawn" I've been here before, or "wow, that is so neat". or " tell me more" or " hey, that is a good example, never thought of that" or " I paid $xxx for THIS????" .... many different possibilities.
          It depends......
          Yeah, everyone has their own take on the course, and everyone has the luck of the draw (not every course staff is a good/bad/so-so as mine/yours/that one), and everyone comes with their own preconcieved notions (or lack of) and past experiences to compare with and draw from. .

          At least we asked their opinion before they scattered.


          • #53
            Just got back from weekend #1 for woodbadge. I had a lot fun, I do think that much of the training isn't awesome since I've done a lot of training before. But working together in the patrol method is a bunch of fun. The biggest problem is being partnered with 2 people in the patrol that are total dead weight. I guess that is the experience that the boys will have to deal with when they are in scouts. My son is a cub still so I feel like this is preparing me for that future transition.


            • #54
              In the late 1980s as a Cub Scout in the Atlanta Area Council, I would go to day camps and "Cuborees" with my Dens. It may sound hokey, but I was always intrigued by the Scouters in their red jac-shirts and wooden beads. I looked up to those guys/gals because they were SO good with the Cubs. They were "boy-men" as B-P would say. I felt comfortable approaching them and talking to them because they spoke my language and looked like they were having as much fun as I was.

              Just this past weekend, I was on staff at a joint SM-Specific/IOLS course (someone's Wood Badge ticket item) at our local council camp property. During a break, I went for a hike with another fellow staffer and we came across a Patrol of young Scouts. They approached me immediately and starting showing me the cool things they had found on their hike: broken arrows from the archery range, broken clay pigeons from the shotgun range, and plastic coins with the face of Abraham Lincoln engraved upon them. They didn't think twice before approaching me and sharing their excitement with me. It was at that moment that I realized I had become one of those Scouters I looked up to when I was even younger than they are now.

              I was wearing my Wood Badge regalia but that had nothing to do with why the Scouts engaged me in excited conversation. The truth is, having the right attitude as a Scouter is what attracts the Scouts. If you are a boy-man and provide positive guidance with a great attitude, I believe you can have a lasting influence on countless young men.

              In April 2011, I came back to Scouting after a 15-year period where I was in school and starting a career. It dawned on me that I could/should give back to local youth by serving as


              • #55
                an assistant Scoutmaster. So I found a Troop in the area and they asked me to be their Scoutmaster seven months later. I immediately took all the training courses I could and signed up for Wood Badge, too, because I had read about it and had known those Scouters in Atlanta who had sported the beads. SM-Specific and IOLS were good at pumping me up and getting me excited about learning and engaging the Scouts in my Troop.

                Wood Badge for the 21st Century was more PowerPoint than I would have wanted. It would have been much cooler to have hands-on Scoutcraft training but, alas, we don't have that opportunity now. What I did enjoy about WB21C was living and working with my Beaver Patrol for a week (as opposed to two separate weekends). We experienced camping and cooking together just as a Scout Patrol would at summer camp. We had PLC meetings and shared the responsibility of Patrol Leader over the course of the week. We met loads of new people from around the council and out-of-council. So, networking. My ticket was aimed as helping grow my Troop and make Scouting possible for as many young men as possible, despite economic hardships that exist in our area. Sure, I had these ideas going into WB21C but the ticket-writing forced me to sit down and formulate it. All in all, my week was a great experience from the point of view of a Patrol outing with like-minded people who are united by the movement of Scouting.

                Still, I see William Hillcourt and Buck Carson in this photo and think about how Wood Badge would have been if they were my Scoutmaster/Course Directors:

                Wood Badge was $210 and a week of vacation--for me not a be big deal. Did I take away some valuable things for my Troop? Absolutely. Was it lashing skills or how to tie a bowline? No. I gladly supplement my Scouting training by reading William Hillcourt's writings and studing B-P's Aids to Scoutmastership. I read this forum and try to tune out the bickering in order to get to the meat of the posts. I read Clarke Green's blog at scoutmastercg,com. I go to Roundtable and meet new people and get new ideas. I volunteer to teach IOLS and SM-Specific because it helps me learn the concepts a little better. Teaching is an excellent way to learn something!

                A long post that I've been meaning to write for several months...Train yourself or go to Wood Badge like any other training both. It's up to you, Packsaddle. No one training course is going to satisfy everyone's needs. JBlake, keep being awesome. Basementdweller, (you could try being a little less pessimistic :-)) continue to be awesome. EVERYONE who contributes to this forum is awesome in that they are Scouters who want to give back to the youth.


                • Sentinel947
                  Sentinel947 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Woodbadge is similiar to almost everything else in life, it is what you make of it.

                  I'm glad I've found another devotee of Keep attending your roundtable and gaining more knowledge about Scouting! Teaching IOLS and SM- Specifics is a great way to improve Scouting in your area!

                  Yours in Scouting,


              • #56
                I see having someone WB-"educated" is now a JTE requirement. Gre-e-e-e-eat ...
                Last edited by HICO_Eagle; 01-09-2014, 03:36 PM.


                • #57
                  Wood Badge is the top BSA volunteer leader training, with Power Horn being it's outdoor skill companion. I agree with what was said above, Wood Badge is what you make of it. My course was an amazing experience that changed my life for the better, both inside, and outside of scouting. I took Wood Badge as a 25 year vet leader, and still walked away with more than I could have dreamed. Should everyone take Wood Badge, no I don't think so. I's suggest Wood Badge to seasoned leaders with about five years tenure, who are looking at taking on a key role, at any level, in any unit type.

                  Keep in mind a good attitude and open mind are essential to making your course experience a good one. This experience will vary from council to council, and course to course. I can say the scenario described in the OP would never happen in my council.


                  • #58
                    I think 4days of some what leadership training is not enough, I think there should be 3 tiers to a WB. When I was a asst scoutmaster back in the 90's I looked at it hard. But we had camp Merrill (5th RTB) that actually gave you better leadership training, and skills that you could take back to the Troop level.
                    It lasted a straight week in July when the school shut down. The Rangers had a very active role in the Northeast Georgia council in the Boy Scout capacity as well as the Explore capacity.
                    I think Giving the skills to leaders is essential and especially when as a parent you are trusting another adult with precious cargo. So knowing that this adult is trained a little above the standard and that they will be safe in a Backpacking, Water, mountaineering type of activity.

                    It also was designed to give some adults who have never had a chance to lead or been in a leadership role some guidance. But to someone who has some type of leadership role daily will find it trivial to say the least. That is why I think there should be a 3 tier system of training to the wood badge and make it more unique and challenging as well. I mean look at this way there is that old saying " do not tell someone to do something that you are not willing to do yourself" so doing that 50 mile a foot. 50 mile a float you have the skills to deal with oh" it" factor when it happens.


                    • Basementdweller
                      Basementdweller commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I agree that additional training is needed such as an Advanced Outdoor training course. in addition to an IOLS.

                      Should not come under the auspice of a paper pushing course.

                    • Basementdweller
                      Basementdweller commented
                      Editing a comment
                      In a further response to your post.

                      Isn't that the grist of the Powderhorn course.

                      Know your limits, you cannot be proficient at everything and Know where to get the experts to put on a safe and exciting course for your unit.

                  • #59
                    So Basically BSA Councils are saying Unless You Have Woodbadge...Regardless of Any other BSA Training and Experience you have..Your to Dumb to lead anything until ya pay for Woodbadge then suddenly you know it all and Can Lead..Until you Take Woodbadge you don't No Anybody then Suddenly you Know everyone after two weekend.


                    • Basementdweller
                      Basementdweller commented
                      Editing a comment
                      officially probably not.

                      But the district volunteers certainly enforce it.

                    • jblake47
                      jblake47 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Don't feel bad about it, if one took WB pre-2000, you go back to being dumb until you take it again.


                  • #60
                    Well I guess I am to stupid to remember where I put My Checkbook then....If I have to pay to Volunteer forget it..I will just pay to attend what I want and not have to work or worries


                    • jblake47
                      jblake47 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      30 years of working with Boy Scouts and I am not allowed to staff WB because I'm pre-2000. Go figure. At least they don't tap me out anymore for training, that's a good thing too. (They have tapped me out to do certain segments as an adjunct instructor for some of the more difficult topics.)


                    • Kudu
                      Kudu commented
                      Editing a comment
                      We should force the WB participants who took the Blanchard WB 2000 course, to take the Tuckman course, just to watch them Storm.