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No Patch- No SMC and No BOR

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  • #16
    Show me in the handbook or in the requirement book where it states that they MUST be in full field uniform. It doesn't, does it. If it was required, then it would be stated in the requirement listing. It is suggested to wear the uniform, but it is not a requirement, so why refuse the youth?
    I give my Scouts a SMC when they request it, none of this once a month stuff. The troop meeting is being run by the SPL, correct? Why does the Scoutmaster have to be in the complete troop meeting? I also give them on campouts. What a better time than that?

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    • #17
      Boards of Review are formal occasions and it is recommended (but you can't insist) that they are in full field uniform. Scoutmaster Conferences are NOT formal occasions and are not meant to be. There is not even a recommendation on uniforming for SMC.

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      • #18
        Hi all,

        Many thanks for your thoughts. Please find responses to various questions. the only patch that was missing was an centennial unit patch. my kid had the old 2009 one and seems there was a new one that should have replaced it. He had every other patch in right places and he was in complete uniform. Seems this patch was given about 2 years ago and so many uniform inspections have happened, advancements have happened, there have been no mention whats-so-ever.

        Mr.Twocubdad,

        You are spot on. Its my sons issue and he is upset. The Advance chair js a nasty person and has "Gotcha" attitude. If they could, they would crucify the kids. I am trying to coach my kid as how to objectively look at things, do research and stand up for whats right. Its then we got stuck up-For no where we could find any mention of all patches being place for a SMC or BOR. Anytime in doubt, I would ask my kid to refer to Scouts handbook and there was no mention. So I was wondering was my premise to refer SHB is correct or we should be referring to others as well?
        May be there are other docs we should refer and until to-date we got lucky. I wanted to verify, hence posted the question.

        You are right. We do have a person who probably would fit like a T in Nazi Gestapo, where some of the treatments border on harrassment. Besides changing troops, is there any resourse to address these malicious adult leaders who are mother loads for civil/criminal law suits?

        Mr DesertRat,

        Thanks for your response. The patch that was to be there was a centennial unit patch. He had the 2009 one. apparently there was a new one which should have been there. All other (First class, Den chief, etc) were spot on.

        Mr .Beavah, your advice and kind words are duely noted. Many thanks.




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        • #19
          There are two definative books for Boy Scout advancement (and the Boy Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster Handbooks are not either of them.)

          The definitive book for advancement policy and procedures is the Guide to Advancement. It is available online and as a hardcopy you can purchase at the Scout Shop. The online version is here:
          http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement.aspx

          The definitive book for requirements is the Boy Scout Requirements book, it comes out annually, the 2013 version just arrived at the Scout Shops.

          The wrong quality unit patch, really? Well there is absolutely no requirement that a Scout show up to s SMC in uniform, let alone having to have all patches in place. You can refer your advancement chair to the Guide to Advancement. They also can't add such a requirement. No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements. See the link above.

          As for the Board of Review. It is preferred, but not required, that a boy have the proper uniform with badges in place for a BOR. If he didn't have a QU badge, that was needed, too bad. He gets his BOR anyway. The pertinent section is:

          8.0.0.4 Wearing the Uniform-or Neat in Appearance
          It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. He should wear as much of it as he owns, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as the members of his troop, team, crew, or ship wear it. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in his appearance and dressed appropriately, according to his means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit expectations or rules, boards of review may not reject candidates dressed to this description; neither may they require the purchase of uniforming, or clothing such as coats and ties.

          I hope this helps. If your advancement chair has any questions they should give the Council Advancement Chairman a call. If they can't help, you can send a note to
          advancement.team@scouting.org

          The question you need to ask yourself is how to present the facts to the adult leadership of your troop without turning them off.

          Comment


          • #20
            A Centennial Unit patch?

            Well, whatever.

            I think the boy should do his best, tidy up us uniform, and ask the SM for an expedited conference and BOR since it sounds like some adult is bypassing the wishes of his SPL.

            If there's a patch I'd like a boy to wear, I'd let him know, but wouldn't halt his advancement. You know what? I have yet to meet a boy who didn't get it right for his next rank.

            I would try to get a one-on-one with this adult and tell him from your end of things, he is adding to the requirements and needs to lighten up. Do it over coffee and keep the lawyers out of it. (No offense, Beaver.)

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            • #21
              Jeeez, it's nice to have an active thread on something beside membership policy!


              Yeah, that's pretty ticky-tack. I've got four or five uniform shirts and don't have the same quality unit patch on any two -- and I don't think I have a 2012 patch on any of them.

              I think it is wholly appropriate for a parent to help a Scout figure out what HE wants to do. There a LOTs of great citizenship lessons here: deciding what battles are worth fighting, how to go about raising an appeal in a courteous, respectful way, standing up for yourself and what you think is right. Cue up just about any Kenny Rogers song.

              Kids in similar situations are either afraid "they'll never make Eagle if they make a fuss" or something equally silly, or go off the deep end tilting at windmills. Work with your son and guide him to an appropriate response.

              I also think it appropriate for a parent to keep a distant eye on things and make sure you boys is being treated right. If the troop advancement guy is really the jerk you describe (and I've met one or two of them) he may not respond well to being challenged by a whipper-snapper. Then again, a real Scouter will see the boy doing just exactly we ask of them, when they see an un-just law they work for it's change through appropriate means. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest your son re-read and become conversant with the description of "A Scout is Obedient" in the handbook.

              The section from the Guide to Advancement regarding uniforms and Board of Review is posted above. There is also a section on appeals he should read. The full Guide to Advancement is on line at Scouting.org. Fr Star, I believe appeals are handled by the troop committee. Your son should ask his SM for the procedure.

              Finally, your conversation needs to include a conversation about end-game. It is possible not everyone in the troop has seen Mr. Smith Goes To Washington. It could get ugly and you need to make you son aware of those possibilities and what the end of that trail looks like to.

              I know this kinda sucks right now and isn't the program we really envision, but in the big picture of learning citizenship and how to make ethical decisions, this could be one of the best lessons your son learns in Scouting.

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              • #22
                This just occurs to me: Why does the advancement chair have any say about Scoutmaster Conferences? Does the AC screen Scouts before they talk to the SM?

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                • #23
                  Twocubdad makes a good point. The Advancement Chair does not works as a gatekeeper, and they do not sign Scouts off on advancement. Their major job it to make sure boards of review are held and do the council paperwork to obtain the badges.

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                  • #24
                    ScoutDaddy,

                    Centennial patch? Wow, I'd like to amend my response thusly: cancelling a SMC/BOR because of a centennial patch is pure chicken****. The leader in question: I think some adult scouters have a leather-bound insignia guide, gilt edge, that they treat like holy writ. Ugh.

                    I think your perspective and approach are on the money. Best wishes to you and your son on the scouting trail.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      WHAT? A CQU patch is causing this/ And as others pointed out, why is a committee member getting involved in a SMC?

                      To quote the 9th Doctor, "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

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                      • #26
                        Does anybody think its units like this that drive kids out of scouting less than anything that comes out of Irving?

                        Scoutdaddy21- Its really your sons battle, you should talk to the scoutmaster about advancement, on a troop level, not just about your son. You should be ready to take over as Advancement Chair as the reason the jerk is such a jerk is because he doesnt think anyone else would do what he does

                        Surprise him

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Does anybody think its units like this that drive kids out of scouting less than anything that comes out of Irving?

                          Scoutdaddy21- Its really your sons battle, you should talk to the scoutmaster about advancement, on a troop level, not just about your son. You should be ready to take over as Advancement Chair as the reason the jerk is such a jerk is because he doesnt think anyone else would do what he does

                          Surprise him

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            That is beyond ticky tacky.

                            Our Troop has its own norms. We want the boys to have their watch on(so they show up on time), a pen (so they can take notes and get sign offs), and their book (so we can review things without Troopmaster). What if they do not have them?

                            Do we stop their BOR? No they get a lecture!

                            Watch--you need to know the time, not to rely on others because scouts are expected to be punctual.

                            Pen--Be prepared! We often have a discussion of the leaders preferred instruments (Space Pen, I am an old school pencil man myself)

                            Book--So they know where they are, so they can meet with their PL on what they need to work on.

                            We talk (as they move up in rank) on how it is like a job interview. Sometimes boys will tell us--I use my phone for the time, or to take notes. One showed us the notes from that Troop meeting! One said he lost his book but pulled out a dog earred Troopmaster record.

                            But we know that is our norm and we are not gonna bust them for it. Did the boy treat the BOR seriously in the mind of a boy?


                            We are serious about rank, POR, and patrol patches because they affect how they function in the Troop. Even then we may do the BOR and tell them we will do the final sign off when they appear with the proper corrections. Usually it gets fixed that night.

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                            • #29
                              Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Centennial Unit patch optional in the first place? Sounds like an adult-led program with very little understanding of what the program is supposed to accomplish.

                              Stosh

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                              • #30
                                Have they given the Scouts the new patch? Then it should be replaced. But it's still no reason to withhold an SMC or BOR. Who said the SMC couldn't go on? The SM? He's the only one that gets to make that decision. Unfortunately, you're not likely going to be able to change this culture - so either you need to find a new unit, leave Scouts, or just follow the dictates of the dictators. The only other alternative is to become the Chartered Organization Rep at which time you can gather the committee members and program leaders in a room, tell them that they will follow the policies from now on, that they will never pull a stunt like this again, or they can head for the door as their services are no longer required if they don't agree. Unless you're a member of the CO and best buds with the head of the CO, this plan is unlikely to happen.

                                I had the same thought as OGE - is it any wonder we have threads asking about why it's so difficult to keep older Scouts involved and active?

                                (This message has been edited by calicopenn)

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