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Two deep and driving

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This may be a dumb question but do two leaders need to be in every vehicle? Is it allowed for me to drive a scout to or from a meeting if his parents cannot due to family conflicts?


This issue came up at a popcorn show and sell. The "kernel" would have had to pack her vehicle around her son to get everything home. They live on my way home and we were uncertain if it was allowed for me to give her son a ride.


It also might come into play with my daughter's Venture Crew. She is asking a friend or two to join but their parents have commitments on meeting nights.

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The YP rule for driving is no one-on-one, not 2-deep.


If you are driving a Scout you are not related to you need another adult, or another youth, in the car with you.


As long as you have your own child in the car with you, you are fine adding any number of other youths.

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Many, many, many people get the two deep leadership and no one on one contact rules confused.


Two-deep leadership on all outings required: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings.


One-on-one contact between adults and Scouts prohibited: One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted.


As a note two deep does not apply to unit meetings by BSA policy, however I would not conduct one without another leader or adult present.

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Let me ask this question.

When does being a friendly neighbor stop and scouting begin?

Many years ago, an adult leader, his son and the neighbor boy all came to the Troop meeting in the adult leader's car. They lived in the next town over, which was about a 10 mile drive, one way. No other scout or adult leader lives this far away from the Troop meeting place. In other words, it is out of the way for anyone else in the Troop to get this boy to the Troop meetings.

The neighbor boy is from a single parent home. No transportation available. The single Mom has to care for another child, while her son is at scouts.

Everything is OK up to this point.

Now, the adult leader's son ages out of the program, and goes to college. The neighbor boy still needs a ride to the Troop meetings. The adult leader is still registered with the Troop and would like to be a good neighbor and a good scouter, and still get this boy to the meetings.

However, the no one on one contact rule comes into play.

Single mom has no apprehension sending her son to the Troop meetings with the adult leader. Even goes so far as to provide written permission for the adult leader to transport her son to scouts.

The adult leader still had reservations about how this situation would be percieved, so he decided that he would pick the boy up, wearing his civilian clothes, and then change into his scout uniform at the meeting place. when the meeting was over, he would change back into his civilian attire, and drive the boy home. Thus being a good neighbor to and from the meeting place, and a scouter at the meeting place.

The young man in question, has since aged out of the program, having earned the Eagle rank; in large part to the kindness of his neighbor.


Your thoughts?

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Yah, gsdad, RichardB gave yeh da technical requirements.


Those aren't really all that practical for your use case, though. So I reckon da way yeh need to think about this is that gettin' to the meeting or meet-up point is not officially part of the scouting event. Neither da BSA nor the unit need to be involved in da carpool arrangements that parents make. So if the kernel asks yeh to take her son home, that's a private arrangement and just fine, in da same way that the neighborhood carpool is, eh? Yeh see parents drive da carpool even if their own kid is sick all the time


We'd lose a quarter of the kids in scouting if people didn't do exactly what yeh describe in terms of picking up lads who couldn't make it because a single parent or family can't provide transportation themselves.



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I had a similar situation. We normally drive two scouts home sfter meetings. One's dad works a really weird shift and is in bed very early, the other's father is deployed. The boys live about 2 miles apart. A few weeks ago, the rest of my family was away for a couple weeks visiting family and I was faced with a dilemna. I could follow YP while dropping off the first boy, but not the second. (Boy 2 is a family friend for many years)


I contacted my UC to get his advice. His response was in such a case to use common sense, get written parental permission and do what needed to be done for scouting. I took that as sometimes situations overrule guidelines, but in this case, only with forethought.


I think the week in question, both boys got sick so I never had to do it.


While Boy 2's dad was gone, I did drive him alone to teach him how to check and add oil to their car. I told his mom we were going as friends and not scouts.

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Related question, as this has recently come up in our troop. Is it ok for a troop leader to take several boys on a hike during a campout without a second leader? No one-on-one contact, short hike on well-established trails/roads, not more than 10 minutes from the main group at anytime, visible for most of the hike.


What say ye, Scouters? Heinous violation of 2-deep leadership or reasonable scouting activity?

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ASM, sounds like your adult was over-officious.


That may be his personality, or he may have had to endure enough nit-picking from scouting zealots in his life that it became easier to use the shirt off vs. on as a symbol of 'neighborly' vs. 'BSA/YPT/PTA-ish'.


There was no need for it. Either the boy was safe with him or he wasn't. And your leader was at the same risk of accusation with or without the shirt if the boy was up to no good.


Gsd, I just drove two venturers home from an outing. After I dropped the closest one at his house, there was 15 minutes of 1-on-1. It was a good opportunity to talk about college, girlfriend, religion, family. So, definitely get your daughter's friends in that car with you. Those conversations are worth the gas money.

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Is it ok for a troop leader to take several boys on a hike during a campout without a second leader? No one-on-one contact, short hike on well-established trails/roads, not more than 10 minutes from the main group at anytime, visible for most of the hike.


What say we?


Yah, hmmm... Well, I'd say somethin' like "get a grip". :) Or perhaps, "use clutch, engage brain".


Two deep is required for trips and outings, and yeh had two adults on the outing. It's not required for every moment of da outing. No one-on-one is fine for such a hike.




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Thank you, Beavah. That is what I thought, and most of our troop leaders agree. Too bad the guy who quit over 'two-deep leadership violations' like the one described doesn't agree. He wanted two leaders in the vehicle for driving, too. I wish him well in his new troop. ;)

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I'm disgusted.


Now I can't pretend to be 100% perfect. I've had two cases where my sons were not with me when we needed drivers to drive kids home. In one case, I dropped two kids off at one scouts home and the other scout's parents picked him up from there. In the other case, I dropped off the youngest scouts first and dropped the oldest scout last. But depending on "who", I may not have risked that as I want to protect myself as much as the scouts.




With that confession though, I get really scared when I hear excuses and tricks to game the system:


---- Waiting to put on the uniform when at the meeting.

---- Driving to the meeting isn't officially part of scouting.

---- Getting a permission note from the parents


The rules are very clear. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#e Of course, edge cases exist to test any rule. But you don't "plan" to violate the youth protection rules because it's too hard.




Maybe any specific individual is or is not an abuser. That's not really the issue. And you can't justify any plan because the scout will be "safe" with you or you think they will be safe with someone else. The issue is that these rules are in place to protect the youth. We set an example so that parents and others know what to expect and hopefully to prevent abuse by others. We set an example that protects our scouts.


The trouble is most abusers also easily justify their actions. Bringing the kid to a game. Driving him home. Having him over to work on a project. Being his only ride to scout meetings.


While edge cases exist, I am disgusted that anyone would plan to game the system because it's not practical.




If you have a scout that can't get to meetings and you feel so strongly about driving him, then contact your council risk manager or scout executive to get a waiver on the rule. Until then ...


- If you want to be a good respected leader that does the right thing, you work with-in the rules. If that means a scout misses meetings or does not earn Eagle, that's the right solution.


- If you want to do a really good deed, you find a way to bring the scout to the meeting and still work within the rules. Your wife rides with you. Find another scout to join so you are driving two. Coordinate other rides.


Just don't ever pat yourself on the back for what you accomplish by choosing to violate youth protection rules.




As for driving or hikes, it's the one-on-one rule that applies. Two deep for trips and outings. A hike though is just part of a larger event. One-on-one seems fine there and within the rules.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

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