Splitting the troop . . . or not?

[GaHillBilly 10]

My son's troop has problems with skills. (Don't they all?) As best I can tell, the problems are typical in this Council, but I'm too new to Scouting to have any idea whether they are typical nationwide.

 

Anyhow, just a few examples:

+ Eagle candidate, with Swimming MB who can't pass 1st class swim test currently, and who is terrified of water over his head.

+ Same guy couldn't tie a square knot at camp, and butchered a 60' rope of mine, because he didn't know how to tie a sheep shank or a clove hitch on a bight.

+ Recently, none of the Scouts, 1st class or higher, could orient a map using a compass.

+ Likewise, none of senior Scouts, all of whom had the First Aid MB, none could tell how to deal with a broken bone.

+ One of the most senior Scouts has difficulties pitching his own tent.

+ Another senior Scout recently ID'd a hemlock as a "pine", a sweet gum as a "maple" (well, that's more excusable), and a hickory as an "oak".

 

We were not part of the troop during the period when these guys gained rank and MB's without gaining skills, but they are old enough now (16+), so that it will be tough -- even for the ones who acknowledge the lack of skills -- for them to acquire those skills in the time left.

 

The troop is absolutely boy lead, now, but somewhere along the way, the whole idea of teaching Scouts a skill, before expecting them to use it, got skipped. One consequence of this whole approach has been that the older Scouts like level campgrounds accessible by car and flat calm water.

 

The younger Scouts are generally more physically fit and acquire new skills more easily than the older ones. They also are, as a group, more adventurous. They are beginning to chafe at the outing restrictions created by the older Scout's timidity and lack of skills.

 

But, the worst part is that some of the most senior Scouts aspire to the Troop Guide and Troop Instructor POR's, and want to 'teach' the younger Scouts. A couple of these guys have good personalities, and would end up 'teaching' the younger Scouts to be Scouts just like they are -- almost skill-less. My thinking is that THAT something worth fighting against.

 

However, there's an opening in terms of restructured patrols to do things a bit differently. I've thought of many different ideas, but the one I'm currently mulling over is to restructure the patrols based on interest in specific types of outings. This would allow the older, skill-less Scouts to be clustered in their patrols, and the younger and more adventurous Scouts (along with some 'teachable' older Scouts) in the other patrols.

 

In turn, this would allow the younger Scouts to go on "patrol outings" that the whole troop (and senior Scouts) would never attempt. Skills work on these outings wouldn't step on the toes of the older Scouts (and their parents), since they wouldn't be there.

 

But, there may be all sorts of pitfalls in such an approach that I've overlooked, but that hopefully, y'all will notice.

 

GaHillBilly

[Scouter&mom 10]

Sounds like you are doing what lots of troops do (although probably in reverse). They often have younger Scout patrols, so that they can learn the basics in their patrol. Also many outings are restricted by age, rank, or skills requirements. I think it would work; however, you need to talk to the adventurous boys. Would they really go if THEY re-structured patrols so that they could do patrol outings? Would the parents buy off on it? We see parents that are concerned about letting their kids do more adventurous activities. Some are more comfortable if there are older Scouts, who the parents think are more experienced.

 

I would say go for it. I expect our new Scout patrol (moved up in March) will produce a Senior Patrol Leader within a year. This young group is ready to set the world on fire. Two are already asking for Den Chief training, to go help the younger boys get ready for Boy Scouts.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

What it sounds like, to me, is a big Roses, Thorns, and Buds session ... amongst the youth. I think there are some issues and challenges, let's get them into the open.

 

Other than a facilitator (and I'd almost argue for a college student Venturer who is still inside the youth program himself), the adults should sit back and listen ... and be under an ironclad rule of no consequences for what any youth says!

[Stosh 3452]

I realize that it is not acceptable to add to the requirements, but... :^)

 

I have told the boys that if they wish to be a PL, TG or Instructor in the troop, they will need to know not only what the requirements are, but also be able to teach them. While it will serve a boy well to know his knots, and how to orient a map, and do first aid and swim the BSA test, but it will not serve those around him unless he can teach it. The choice is left up to each boy to decide which option he may wish to act upon.

 

When NSP PL's are considered, they will not necessarily be tested on their knots, maps or first aid, but, I do know they will be tested on how well they can teach those things. Scouting is a game and competition is a great motivator.

 

Stosh

[GaHillBilly 10]

"What it sounds like, to me, is a big Roses, Thorns, and Buds session ... amongst the youth. I think there are some issues and challenges, let's get them into the open."

 

Getting in the open, is unfortunately the very thing I'm trying to avoid. There are at least two sets of parents of senior Scouts who are in serious denial about their child's skill sets and performance. Getting it in the open would start a war almost as quickly as challenging the wanna-be Eagle.

 

 

GaHillBilly

[Stosh 3452]

"Getting in the open, is unfortunately the very thing I'm trying to avoid. There are at least two sets of parents of senior Scouts who are in serious denial about their child's skill sets and performance. Getting it in the open would start a war almost as quickly as challenging the wanna-be Eagle."

 

I know of no conflict-resolution technique that endorces avoiding the issue. As disruptive as it may sound, there will come a time when then present situation is more painful and it will have to be brought out in the open. A good conflict-management person would be able to quell the potential for the "war". Unfortunately from the response, it sounds as if an outside person as was suggested who has some conflict-management skills is going to be needed. And it is also unfortunate that the longer one waits, the worse it will get.

 

Stosh

 

[Gold Winger 9]

Obviously what is needed here is more training and more attention to the program materials.

 

+ Eagle candidate, with Swimming MB who can't pass 1st class swim test currently, and who is terrified of water over his head.

 

After a Scout earns the Swimming MB, there is no need to pass another swim test. Why is this Scout being tested and how is his fear relevant.

 

+ Same guy couldn't tie a square knot at camp, and butchered a 60' rope of mine, because he didn't know how to tie a sheep shank or a clove hitch on a bight.

 

Neither the sheepshank nor the clove hitch on a bight are required knots to reach first class. After first class, there is no more need to tie knots and the boys should not be expected to tie knots because they need those neurons for texting.

 

+ Recently, none of the Scouts, 1st class or higher, could orient a map using a compass.

 

That skill is irrelevant in today's Scouting world as are signalling and tracking. If you give the Scouts GPS units they don't need maps.

 

+ One of the most senior Scouts has difficulties pitching his own tent.

 

Pitching your own tent is is not a requirement except for Tenderfoot.

 

+ Another senior Scout recently ID'd a hemlock as a "pine", a sweet gum as a "maple" (well, that's more excusable), and a hickory as an "oak".

 

Is there a requirement to identify hicory trees?

 

Training, man, training. That's what's needed here. You seem to think that Scouting is about knowing and living in the out-of-doors. That is so 1950s. Scouting is now about earning badges as quickly as possible and making Eagle before freshman year in high school.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[CNYScouter 46]

To me it sounds like your troop needs to stop using the Troop method and start using the Patrol method.

 

It usually works that the older Scouts are doing the more adventurous activities but it doesnt have to be that way

 

The older Scouts in a Venture patrol can do the level campgrounds accessible by car and flat calm water.

I think that High Adventure is often pushed to much, not every Scout wants to go to Philmont and finding their interest is important.

 

Perhaps you can challenge this group in other ways than High Adventure.

Teach them to cook in Dutch Ovens or other ways to improve their cooking skills or another Scout skill.

I think this is where sitting down and talking with the older scouts (let them do 99% of the talking) and finding out their interests and then come up with ways to challenge them

 

Let your regular patrols do the more High Adventure activities and New Scout patrols (NSP) do levels

 

You are correct in saying that it will be tough -- even for the ones who acknowledge the lack of skills -- for them to acquire those skills in the time left.

 

As it has been said on his forum many times, the older scouts are not going to like change.

Work on keeping the older scouts interested and coming and start changing your program with the younger scouts.

 

But, the worst part is that some of the most senior Scouts aspire to the Troop Guide and Troop Instructor POR's, and want to 'teach' the younger Scouts.

 

Just because they want these positions doesnt mean you have give it to them if they dont have the skills.

 

But dont give up you might be surprised how fast these skills appear or are relearned once they really have to know them

 

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

"After a Scout earns the Swimming MB, there is no need to pass another swim test. Why is this Scout being tested and how is his fear relevant."

 

Everyone has to pass the "swim check" every year at camp, regardless of how many badges they have, and will be placed in the appropriate ability group. I am a BSA Lifeguard Counselor, swimming MBC, former WSI and help conduct swim checks...then at the end of the day I have to jump in and pass it myself, or the Aquatics Director won't color in my buddy tag. Is that fair? Sure it is, when the safety of the campers is on the line. IMO, every scout should know how to swim.

 

Unfortunately, what GaHillBilly describes is too common. I have youths (and adults) sign up for BSA Lifeguard who have "been passed" on swimming and lifesaving MB...but can't swim a length of the pool with any kind of recognizable stroke. Sad.

 

Perhaps what we need is a comprehensive final exam for Eagle Scout to weed out the "posers"? Hmmmm.

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Perhaps what is needed is for the Troop to actually help their boys retain their skills.

 

As the saying goes - use it or lose it. Heck, I could roller skate rings around folks back in the day. After 35 years without a skate of any kind on my feet I would probably end up with multiple broken body parts if I tried it today.

 

It seems your Scouts have lost whatever skills they might have had because your Troop is not having them use them.

 

One thing to keep in mind - RETAINING skills is not a requirement for advancement. If they learned the skill well enough to be signed off on a requirement, that is what is required by BSA. If they never use that skill again, of course they will loose it.

 

To complain that Scouts have not retained their skills, and to hold back advancement because of that, is unfair to the Scout. Especially if the Troop's program does not include reinforcement of those skills.

 

As somone mentioned, start using the Patrol Method. Patrol competitions are a great - fun way - to refresh skills.

 

You complain about boys who want to be Troop Guides or Instructors and say you will fight against it. One of the BEST ways to retain a skill is to teach it to someone else. Require that all Guides and Instructors go thru a refresher course on the skills they are going to be teaching.

 

Do you want to help these older boys regain and retain lost skills? To me, it sounds like you are ready and willing to write them all off in favor of the more adventurous, "teachable", younger Scouts.

 

However, one thing you do not seem to have considered, if you do not change your Troop's program, in a few years you will be going thru this all over again. Your current crop of "unteachable", "unskilled" Scouts will be gone, but your now "adventurous", "teachable" young Scouts will have turned into "unskilled" older Scouts if the Troop does nothing to help them retain their skills.

 

Use it, or loose it. And loose them.

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

ScoutNut, it's not entirely obvious from my initial post, but the older Scouts don't lack skills, because they've lost or forgotten them. They lack skills because they never had them in the first place!

 

The causes are the usual ones: merit badge mills, (ie, colleges); an out of council camp that is apparently worst camp in the US, for generating bogus rank advancement and merit badges; a somewhat indecisive SM dealing with a group of Scouter parents intent on their sons gaining Eagle, no matter how much fudging was required, etc.

 

You write, "To me, it sounds like you are ready and willing to write them all off in favor of the more adventurous, "teachable", younger Scouts." This is precisely correct. I am willing to write them off, rather than to start a war.

 

If you know how to help them, in a manner they and their parents will accept, I'm all ears!

 

For someone to learn (or relearn!) a skill, he has to acknowledge that he presently lacks that skill. That is *SO* not happening in this case.

 

I'm open (and even seeking!) better options here. But please, work with me on the problem I have: unskilled Scouts who never learned the skills in the first place and who have parents who are proud as punch of their AMAZING and WONDERFUL nearly-Eagle Scouts.

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

[Nike 94]

Even if you only car camp for the next year, you can still use patrol competitions to help correct deficits. Have a Troop Guide Grab Bag of scout skills, maybe even one set for meetings and another for outings. First patrol to get all its members finished with a proper skill display wins. I find food and relief from a dreaded camp chore encourages boys really well.

 

And if your adventurous patrols chafe at car camping, let their PLs and APLs make that point in the PLC.

 

While I wouldn't let my 13 year old go on a patrol camp out unaccompanied by two adults, if they wanted to do something more daring and adventurous, I'd try like heck to get them there.

 

[croushorn 10]

This is the exact reason why Web leaders start new units. It's just easier than trying to clean up all the "issues" within an existing unit. I had the same dilemma, taking over for a greatly respected SM that had guided the troop for 15 years. My son was approaching as a Web and I was bringing him into the unit. It was my old Troop, my church, and had a lot of baggage of a burned out leader and his lack of effective ASMs. He was literally hanging on for me to arrive. Very intimidating!

You just need to re-teach some of these guys quietly and without much notice to the youngers or adults. Simply by using the resurrected PLC meetings was the most effective way for me to do this. The SPL would guide them through upcoming activities and things the younger guys needed to know. Then the SPL would ask for volunteers to teach the skills, as at that time our PLs were non-existent (teaching what they were to be doing in patrol corners was a whole nother process). That would give the guys a couple weeks or so to prepare and brush up. The SPL & I would pull them aside later to remind them ok, youve got 20 minutes to fill teaching xx rank, requirement #xx. What have you got in mind to do? Use that as a chance to review and give some pointers. Show them relevant sections in Woods Wisdom for ideas. The last thing you want to do is let them wing it unprepared (but letting the kid embarrass himself can be a great way to teach a lesson!). However when that does happen, which it will, is why the PLC meets at the end of each meeting. That gives SPL a chance to review the success of the meeting plan and chew some butt if someone wasnt ready; and remind everyone of what is coming up next week. Be patient, dont embarrass them in front of the younger guys but dont be afraid to pull them aside and talk about all this as they adjust to you and your expectations. They are not going to be perfect; they will misidentify nature, struggle with knots and compasses (Only Stosh has those perfect guys ). Their apple cart is getting upset so dont push them away or give up on them! You still have a chance to make a great impact on these young men as well. They are probably pretty intimidated by this new bunch of hot shots that brought in this new barn burner leader. But once they start seeing some small victories and improvements theyll get on board. It takes time, but you need to be persistent, take every opportunity to constructively reinforce and involve the patrol method and youth leadership. Just my experiences, I hope some of it helps.

[Gold Winger 9]

"Everyone has to pass the "swim check" every year at camp, regardless of how many badges they have, and will be placed in the appropriate ability group."

 

I know that but it really doesn't matter if this Scout passes the test. Does it? He has his Swimming badge and pass the swimming test for first class. BSA says that he never needs to put his toe in the water again. If you are forcing him into the water to satisfy some artificial troop requirement then there are bigger problems.

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

This is what the other guy said >>> "That gives SPL a chance to review the success of the meeting plan and chew some butt if someone wasnt ready; and remind everyone of what is coming up next week. Be patient, dont embarrass them in front of the younger guys but dont be afraid to pull them aside and talk about all this as they adjust to you and your expectations. They are not going to be perfect; they will misidentify nature, struggle with knots and compasses (Only Stosh has those perfect guys )."

 

This is what I say >>> Thanks for the compliment, I'll pass it along to my perfect boys, especially the two who are ADHD and the other one who has Asperger's Syndrom. (If one doesn't know what those diagnosis are they had better not hang around kids.) And if they aren't having the SPL chewing out butts, pulling them aside and make sure they get their adult mandated agenda straightened out by some adult, maybe they'll be as good as mine. But, I would suggest that treating them with a little respect, helping them with those things they struggle with and treating them as an equal maybe they would actually want to learn from someone they truly respect. For those who wish to know why my boys appear to be perfect is when my patrol members look good, my PL's look good, when my PL's look good my Troop Officers look good, when my Troop Officers look good, I look good, and when I look good, I can spend a lot of time helping my patrol members look good. I think this process goes a long way to quell discipline problems, it keeps the boys focused on a common goal and the whole thing his monitored by the boys themselves.

 

Yes, I have witnessed in action the types of leaders I never wish to be. My boys have also seen some of these leaders and are totally amazed by some of the antics. Lead by example. Butt chewing SPL's breed butt chewing PL's, etc. We all reap what we sow, and I'm loving every bit of it.

 

How many of the BSA leaders out there expect to be referenced as Mr. ____________? and yet would never address their boys as Mr. _________.

All my boys are addressed with title and last name, unless we are just sitting around in an informal setting, where we all might take the liberty to occasionally address each other by first name. Respect breeds respect.

 

Stosh