Splitting the troop . . . or not?

[NeilLup 13]

Do your older Scouts acknowledge that there is a problem? Their parents don't but do they?

 

I might suggest that if they want to be Troop Guide or Troop Instructor, you hold a special training weekend for them. To be considered for these positions, they must attend. The weekend would be a very carefully designed outdoor skills weekend. The objective would be to give them a concentrated dose of outdoor skills.

[Stosh 3452]

To add to Neil's comments, it might be a good thing to "groom" 1 or 2 boys to step up into that spot. Opportunities to teach, some feedback afterwards, etc. to get the boys acclaimated to being in front of others, etc. That way then they finally take on the role full time, they will have functional experience. Once the TG's and Instructors are ready, start grooming the next group. And have them groomed by the current TG's and Instructors. I find that intense crash weekend courses are good in emergency situations, but a long-term process seems to stick with the boys better.

 

Stosh

[croushorn 10]

Sorry Stosh - there was supposed to be a smiley face in there that somehow didn't come through, just a good natured ribbing there, buddy.

But since you responded, I said nothing about not being respectful, please don't presume I encourage that. There certainly are many constructive ways of butt chewing for failing to be prepared. But I have no problem dressing down a kid or adult for not completing a task assigned, whether it is in a youth, volunteer, or work environment. I can't speak to other units, but I have an exceptional bunch of boys. Many are in advanced classes at school and fully understanding that an assignment is to be met. We most certainly do treat each other with respect, but we also know to hold each other accountable to our commitments and how it effects everyone when someone fails to hold up theirs. It is part of a teamwork lesson that is becoming more important in every aspect of life. When someone lets down the team there are ramifications as each has a role in that team. Even my Asbergers boys understand the expectations and rise to meet them. Set the bar high and they reach it. While Im not so much into making others look good and reveling in that, Id rather focus on attaining our objectives and teaching the leaders how to get there that is my job in this program. The adult mandated agenda you referred to is the PLCs meeting plan of what they agreed they would accomplish that evening. If making sure the SPL holds them accountable to that plan makes me too involved then so be it, Ill gladly welcome that criticism. You are very correct, respect is essential. But so is accountability and a good old butt chewing when warranted can do wonders for regaining focus and direction. Sheltering a kid from cause and effect is doing them a great disservice in preparation for life.

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

I want to thank those who've posted helpful thoughts, observations, or recommendations. I've reread them several times, as I've worked on preparing for this weeks troop meeting.

 

A couple of quick comments.

 

- Neither I, nor the SM, are totally giving up on the older guys. In fact, one of the older guys will likely be a part of the 'focus' patrol. But, working with the others will require some movement on their part. It's hard for me to even imagine one of the boys (or his parents) acknowledging any problem. In the case of another, his parent is running interference -- I am almost certain the boy is reachable, but not while his parent is preventing him from acknowledging any need to improve.

 

- I appreciate the remarks about treating the boys with verbal respect. I think that's a really good suggestion. I'm going to have to think about how I can implement that here.

 

 

===========================================================

 

Gold Winger, I had assumed that your post was facetious, not serious. But, your 2nd post convinced me that you must be serious. I still find this hard to believe. Would you actually be willing to take a non-swimmer that is seriously afraid of water over his head on a white water trip?

 

Here's what the G2SS says:

 

"3. Swimming Ability

 

A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult who is trained as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. In all other circumstances, the person must be a swimmer to participate in an activity afloat. Swimmers must pass this test:

 

Jump feetfirst into water over your head. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes:sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. This qualification test should be renewed annually."

 

Now, as BW has pointed out, only the bits in bold are absolutely mandatory, but this is not one 'recommendation' I'm going to ignore. Personally, I'd bail out on a trip, before I'd allow non-swimmers on a whitewater trip where I had leadership responsibility. As it happens, I am a trained lifeguard and instructor, but one of the things such training teaches is that good guards avoid or prevent problems far more often then they perform rescues. There's no way I'm going to set myself up to have to attempt a water rescue of a panicked non-swimmer in white water!

 

I find it stunningly naive and uninformed on your part that you --apparently -- would do so!

 

Your original post pretty much reflects the thinking of the Scouters and parents who've created this mess, but I would have thought they'd be embarrassed to defend their actions publicly. But, if your post was serious -- and given your 2nd post, I have to assume that it was -- maybe I'm mistaken.

 

I'm tempted to dismember your 1st post, but doing so is not the way I need to use my time, right now.

 

===============================================================

 

 

Again, I'd like to offer my thanks to those with helpful comments. And I suppose, GW, that even your comments were helpful in a way. You always need to know the enemy, and without your posts I would have never guessed that anyone would be so brazen as to defend skill-less Scouting in public.

 

 

GaHillBilly

[Beavah 205]

Yah, GAHillBilly, I think you're thinkin' about this Scouting Stuff right, eh? You've got a vision for what you want an older scout or Eagle to be and be able to do, eh? And you're willin' to honestly evaluate whether your program is getting them there, and to make changes if not.

 

Next step is buy-in, eh? You have to start havin' that "vision" conversation with everyone, over and over, in small doses and large. With parents for sure, with committee members definitely, and also with boys. Those older boys aren't dumb, eh? They recognize those things, eh? But it's quite a blow to admit them, and even harder to ask for help.

 

I think NeilLup has the best idea. Take those older boys on a few special weekends - only for 'experienced' older boys, where you can work on skills without embarrassment. Help the one lad to swim by hookin' him up with YMCA classes. Don't be judgmental, don't be negative. Start with where they're at and help 'em to move along.

 

A good reason to work on those older boys is that they will learn faster, eh? They're stronger, they've got more school under their belt. If you encourage and provide opportunities where they're not embarrassed, they'll grow quick. And that will help your program a lot.

 

Of course you're right that in the long run, the investments in your younger guys will be the biggest payoffs. And so by all means continue to give them opportunities, eh? Just don't forget that you're teachin' other things in Scoutin' besides outdoor skills - including how to be an older boy, how troop leadership and decisionmaking should work, etc. For a bunch of those things, you need those older boys to step up, and yeh certainly must not unintentionally undermine them. Yeh can't just work the younger side as a unit.

 

Finally, as Eagledad always reminds us, don't forget about teachin' the parents! What's your plan for sharin' that vision with parents, new and old?

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger 9]

"Gold Winger, I had assumed that your post was facetious, not serious. But, your 2nd post convinced me that you must be serious. I still find this hard to believe. Would you actually be willing to take a non-swimmer that is seriously afraid of water over his head on a white water trip?"

 

It was but as with most humor, there is truth in it.

 

No, I wouldn't take him.

 

If he's afraid of water, why would he be going on the trip unless he is being forced to go? Is there a BSA requirement that he needs to go?

 

I'm still confused as to why this is a concern. He probably struggled with inner demons to get through the merit badge, you should be glad that he managed to do that.

 

If the troop was going rock climbing and he passed on it because he is afraid of heights, would it be an issue?

 

[Stosh 3452]

ursus snorous roarus: I fully understood the comment to be humorous and a joshing dig. No harm, no foul. But in a serious tone, my boys have been growing in their awareness of respectfulness and observe some of the adults around them in a different light. Last summer an adult leader screamed at the top of his lungs in the midst of those gathering for evening flags to a boy in his troop. "______ what are you doing?! Front and center, boy, right now!" while pointing to the ground right in front of him. I had more than one boy come up to me and thank me for not being like him. One boy even asked if it was proper for adults in the BSA program to act that way.

 

So, I do know that some butt chewing does go on, and it probably gets demonstrated down to the SPL's in some troops. It just comes as a big surprise when evidence comes to the surface.

 

My little secret that I use is "THE LOOK". When my boys screw up, they pretty much always know it, and I think the silent "LOOK" does more to get them thinking than chewing on their butts. It doesn't need to be a scowl, just a look long enough to let them know the SM has been observant and that we both know the ball was dropped. Unless it's a safety issue the subject is not even discussed out of respect for their understanding.

 

Just this past weekend, one of my PL's said he was going to do the advancement recording a lot different this year than last because last year's records were screwed up pretty bad and it took him a lot longer to get them fixed than if he had done it right in the first place. The great thing about that one was, I didn't even need "THE LOOK", he just came up with it on his own.

 

I knew it was going to be a bad situation, but until he experienced it, he didn't. Now he knows, and I bet he tells his buddies along the way.

 

The reason for the "LOOK" is because the "discussion" is kept silent between the boy and myself. This way, no one else in the troop needs to know their PL goofed. If they do, no one says anything, but the leader knows and figures it out on his own. No one's embarrassed, no one's temper flares up and a lesson is taught. What more could anyone expect. I do notice that a few of my PL's are dealing with discipline problems with their own version of "THE LOOK".

 

Of course they get a smile and/or thumbs up when they do something right which is a lot more often than those times that necessitate "THE LOOK".

8^) vs. :^)

 

Stosh

[croushorn 10]

I had more than one boy come up to me and thank me for not being like him.

Ohhhhh, well yeah, thats a whole nother issue. Was stuck on a jambo contingent with a screamer SM; drove us all nuts. At SeaBase had a 18 year old know-it-all divemaster, couldnt have been a Scout. All week long hes the loud mouth. Finally one day as were unloading the boat as hes babbling to us when he turns to one of his fellows, that is an Eagle and says What, they arent even listening to me!? As quick as I could, I turn and simply say, Because they know good leaders dont have to yell. The Eagle and other Scouts that overhear this bust up laughing, but not him. The kid just didnt get it.

My son gave me the inside skinny a couple years back that they all knew how to read me. Had that problem since I was a kid, I cant win at poker to save my life.

(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

[BulldogBlitz 10]

as someone who was deathly afraid of water (over my head) until i was 13, i can claim that i turned it all around... thanks to a series of things:

 

the troop i was in did canoe trips (mingled in when there weren't Camporees where our skills were being tested). we went on a river that was a class 3-4. i went in the water (lifejacket securely around me). two months later at summer camp, i taught myself how to swim - since every single person that tried previously was trying to teach me the non-symmetrical american crawl. at 15, i did the mile swim. i still can't do the american crawl and would likely drown if i were "forced" to do so for any test.

 

the parents are a different part of the problem and might not have to be dealt with at all. pull these older boys aside (i liked that suggestion of the PLC meeting or outing) and do some refreshing - or first time learning. give these guys a chance to right themselves.

[Stosh 3452]

Whitewater canoeing, I'll go (going this weekend). Rock climbing, nope. Go to the pool to swim and have fun, nope.

 

I don't like heights, but I have other adults that do. End of discussion. Can I rock climb? Yep, Certified Emergency Rescue Technician means I rescue from heights and depths. Do I climb for recreation? Nope. Can I swim? Yep, pass the BSA swim test every year. Do I swim for recreation, nope. I think that for the past 10 years the only time I've swam is to pass the test. The only reason I take the test is so I can canoe with the boys, it has nothing to do with swimming skills, I always wear a PFD. If I was not interesed in any water activities I would not take the annual BSA swim test. Can I swim? Used to be a certified lifeguard. Can I still do a rescue if needed? Yep. Used to be an EMT-A as well. No longer certified. Have I ever saved someone's life after my certification expired, yep. Did the person complain that I didn't have certification, nope.

 

Did it ever occur to anyone that the boy just may not like to swim even if he can marginally pass the tests or has passed in the past? After all G2SS only states that this test SHOULD be conducted annually, it does not state that it must, nor does it state the boy must attend swimming activities to retain his rank or membership.

 

Stosh

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

Well, color me frustrated.

 

I think what I need more than anything else here is humility. The problem is too complex for me to 'figure out' with any certainty. My way MIGHT be better, but I don't know that. And if I get frustrated because I can't do that I think best, and then expose those feelings, I'm just going to make things worse.

 

I'm gonna think some more, and pray some more. God knows what's best, but I don't, and I need to remember that a lot more than I do.

 

However, just to stir the pot . . . I discovered that one of the Scouts who wants to be Troop Guide or Troop Instructor, can't even tie a square knot!

 

C'est la vie!

 

I'm gonna have a glass of wine and go to bed!

 

GaHillBilly

[croushorn 10]

I think what I need more than anything else here is humility.

Yep you better believe it! We like to think we know all the answers, but far from it. Just keep it simple, be patient, and consistent. Thats all most boys need and they end up stepping up to do the right things. You arent going to turn anything around over night, it does take time. Keep plugging and youll get them there. Good luck!

 

[Stosh 3452]

What frustrates people the most is that they view scouting has a measurable end goal. They reach a certain accomplishment points and then that's done, i.e. learn to tie a square knot. Then they go on to the next point.

 

What people don't realize is scouting is a process that begins at a certain point and doesn't quit, it just keeps going. While people look to certain "end points", i.e. AOL, or Eagle, or WB without realizing that it's only a step in an even longer journey. When are we going to get there? (Never) Measure me some success. (Okay, here's a patch/pin for you to wear) Let me know when it's over. (When you give up) Sorry, it just doesn't fit. I started my journey a long time ago and I can assure everyone I no longer remember my Morse Code for second class requirement. Surely there must be something wrong with me for losing such an important skill. One must always ask oneself, how often does one tie square knots other than at scouts? Clove hitch? Diagonal Lashing? But what about such things as teamwork, leadership, moral character development, citizenship, etc. All those other things that aren't even measured in the advancement records of the handbook.

 

If my boy forgets, it's kinda too bad for him. But if the day ever comes when his child needs some first aid and he delves back into his memory for something he learned as a scout and it works for him, life will be good. He may save a life and yet never get a patch or pin for his shirt, but he won't mind.

 

Stosh

[NeilLup 13]

Hello GaHillBilly,

 

I can feel your frustration. As with many things in Scouting, if there is a "right" answer, there is no guarantee that we will find it. And if what we try doesn't work, there's no guarantee that another approach would have worked any better.

 

However, I tell Scouts the following and will respectfully suggest it to you.

 

The Scout Oath and Law set the standard for us. The Oath and Law do not obligate us to succeed to be good Scouts. The standard is "On my honor, I will do MY BEST." If you do your best, you will have met the standard. You may not succeed. Society penalizes that severely, but you will still have met the standard for being a good Scout.

 

So do what you think best but keep your finger on the pulse and be prepared to take quick corrective action if that seems appropriate.

[asm 411 10]

It seems to me that every troop changes every day. The dynamics are incredible. Think about it. With adult leaders changing every so often and bringing a different vision for the delivery of the program. The youth change much quicker, the Scout who was enthusiastic before summer camp is now going into football so his interest has dropped for the time being. He may not return at all, you just never know. The troop I am in is going through some growing pains as well. Advancement and skills are all over the map. Seems to me that there is not a Scout in the troop that can light a fire. Perhaps that don't really want to. I don't know, I have seen them do it before. Need less to say no campfires that last two campouts.

 

So what are you to do? My opinion is that as leaders we deliver the program "Doing our best" as mentioned above. Try to get smarter about delivering the program by asking question on forums such as this, at round table and other Scouters you know. Read old forum posting from ages ago. Read old handbooks, they are cheap enough at amazon and ebay. Realize not everything is going go fit but take the parts that you feel good about.

 

Distribute responsibilities. Encourage Scouts to be responsible. Some will and some won't. The most important thing I think I have discovered is that as adults we let the Scout make the decisions and then we train them one on one or two Scouts to one adult at most. Talking to the masses seems to always fail. I find myself trying to make sure everyone is paying attention. If I train the SPL or a PL and then they train 5 to 8 other Scouts... then the message gets through. There is a bit of message loss but a lot less than when one adult address 20 or more Scouts. You know why there is a Scoutmaster's Minute? That is the attention span of most teenage boys in a crowd.

 

So take the time to train yourself and then train your older Scouts as instructors. Treat them as equals and have them pass on the knowledge. Are you going to get them all to take part, maybe, maybe not. The teenage boy is a fickle beast the best we can do is to be understanding and work with them whenever they are ready. You know if you count a campout as 24 hours (40 - 16 for sleeping) + four 1 hour meetings a month + 1 hour for a PLC we get about 21 hours of opportunity a month to teach them. That leaves less than one hour per Scout per month on average. None the less turning you troop program around is going to take time.

 

Have a vision and then work on implementation through the Scouts who are most interested. Plant seeds in the minds of Scouts. They will grow. Some times I plant the same seed with several Scouts and watch. With any luck as you deliver the BSA program as designed through the more interesed the less interested will join in the fun.

 

Lincoln