The Proper Role of Competition in Scouting

[qwazse]

Stosh,

I agree that time is your friend in many cases (be it a well cared-for patient or a well built PWD car) so part of the "competition" must be recognition of the things that required time to achieve. That applies to sports as well. When I coached soccer to cub-aged kids at the Y, I reviewed the goal count (and goals given up!) after each game, but more importantly I expected a better quality of game than the previous week. Even if they won, kids could be pretty honest about if their play was better than the week before -- and that improvement in quality often had a lot to do with the time put in practice (or running laps around the house dribbling a ball, driving their parents nuts kicking against a wall, etc ...). Kids want to hear you say, "That was the best kick/car/splint I've ever seen from you. Way to step it up!"

 

Oh, and adults like hearing you say that to their kids!

[Stosh]

The Cub Scout motto is DO YOUR BEST. Well, what happens to Junior when his best is not THE best? I guess I'm not ready to tell a kid his best is not going to cut it in the long run. In our day and age of everything centered around competition, good sportsmanship is just a way of telling boys to accept the fact that they didn't win and don't embarrass yourself because of it. I know that's harsh, but watch the boys "shake hands" after the game. Yeah, right, if the coach didn't force them to do it, they wouldn't do it.

 

When I was a WDL, my boys did not compete. I didn't expect them to do their best either. Instead I expected the boys to be the best and gave them the opportunity to do just that. When they entered into the Boy Scout program there was a lot of "friction" with the older boys, because they didn't just go through the motions of getting their Webelos pins to decorate their shirts, they earned them. All but one was FC within 6 months of starting Boy Scouts. The last one took 7 months. They were good at what they did and they knew it, no one had to pat them on their back and tell them that. Five of the six Eagled. Four of the six served in the military. And as far as I know they are all pretty successful in what they eventually chose to do in life.

 

The friction came about because these boys didn't sit around waiting for accolades and opportunities to come their way, they went out and found them.

 

Eagle mill attitude on my part? Nope. It was interesting at one Pack meeting when the pins were being given out, the CM asked one of the boys if he was having fun. He answered with an enthusiastic YES. Then he asked him what he had done to earn his Readyman pin. He honestly told the CM he didn't know. Everyone in the place was thus staring at me including the CM. I stood up and asked the boy if he knows anything about first aid. He beamed and started rattling off all the stuff he knew about first aid and the trip to the rescue unit, etc. etc. The CM got the second boy up there and asked the same first question about fun, but then asked what he had done to get the Communicator pin. Again blank a stare. I asked the boys how many of them learned Morse Code and got to play as long as they wanted to at the campout with their flashlights. Gotta know the right questions to ask.

 

There were no other dens to compete with and the boys didn't compete with each other, but they had fun and learned that these skills were a lot of fun and in the mean time, got really good at them. The friction came when the other Webelos den boys crossed over they just didn't have the level of skill as my boys did. My boys didn't gloat about it, they just knew it and instead of lording over the others, they found great fun/pride in teaching the others. Three of those 6 boys were DC's in their former pack as well.

 

Competition is over rated. Winning is socially motivated, confidence is self motivated. Not everyone can win, but everyone can have self-confidence in what they do.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Yes, my methods are designed to control overly aggressive competition, which is mainly a problem generated by adults.

 

The competition begins with each boy starting with the same kit --- not a pre built PWD car bought off the internet.

 

All the Scouts have access to the same tools and materials to build their cars, and the same amount of time to build them. Parents and sons typically work together, but often Cub Scouts will seek help from a particular parent who is specializing in some part of car building, like polishing axles.

 

And Scouts are invited to paticipate in the district PWD which has all the competition anyone might want.

 

Boys coming from a single mom family aren't significantly disadvantaged.

 

I would maintain that this is at least as much of a family activity as hyper competitive events where dads do most of the PWD car construction. I've heard Boeing engineers describe how their PWD car design was executed on company six axis milling machines.

 

I've seen numerous threads here about bad sportsmanship at PWD races --- the parents who squash a boys car to give their own sone an advantage, leading to boys having their cars taken away at a pre race day registration and never being able to touch them again until the races are completed.

 

What my methods have to offer is a sense of proportion. It IS aimed at limiting the extent to which adult values and methods can interfere with the kind of fun boys like to have at that kind of age.

 

And adults have a good time as well. For every Boeing engineer who doesn't get to take his sons PWD car away from him, there are numerous other parents who appreciate the common enterprise all boys experience in building their cars.

 

As in many things, different units have different styles and methods. I'm happy with my methods, and those favoring highly competetive events are certainly welcome to their methods too.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>I'm happy with my methods, and those favoring highly competetive events are certainly welcome to their methods too.

[Eagle92]

It was interesting at one Pack meeting when the pins were being given out, the CM asked one of the boys if he was having fun. He answered with an enthusiastic YES. Then he asked him what he had done to earn his Readyman pin. He honestly told the CM he didn't know. Everyone in the place was thus staring at me including the CM. I stood up and asked the boy if he knows anything about first aid. He beamed and started rattling off all the stuff he knew about first aid and the trip to the rescue unit, etc. etc. The CM got the second boy up there and asked the same first question about fun, but then asked what he had done to get the Communicator pin. Again blank a stare. I asked the boys how many of them learned Morse Code and got to play as long as they wanted to at the campout with their flashlights. Gotta know the right questions to ask.

 

ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I beleive BP said something along the lines that advancement should as naturally as a suntan, somethign that happens normally in the outdoors.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

I told my SM that Advancement fulfillment

is a happy byproduct but not the aim of POR's, skills, and service.

[Jay K]

Tampa Turtle, happy byproduct, YES! YES!!

 

[SeattlePioneer]

 

 

 

Yep, the highly competitive PWD race is capable of motivating some fathers like nothing else. That's why the excesses of the competitive model occur in the first place I think --- you have parents projecting their own needs and interests on to boys, but I find it tends to get in the way of fun and learning for most boys.

 

But not all, just as you describe.

 

In my experience, part of Cub Scouts is to teach parents --- usually fathers, new ways to enjoy the company of their children. I suppose that applies to the highly competitive or design obsessed father you describe as well, but it's sad if they can't unwind enough to take pleasure in things that are boy oriented rather than primarily adult oriented activities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

I wonder if PWD would cease to exist if there was:

 

1) No trophies

2) No ribbons

3) No adults making their own cars

 

I wonder what would happen if the Pack just set up the track and let the boys have at it. They race their cars and decide on their own who wins.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello JBBlake,

 

 

I imagine that absent adult direction, most boys would resort to fighting and scrapping with each other, usually the extent of most games boys devise on their own.

 

That's pretty low quality play. What Cub Scouts does is to add some adult direction and leadership which enables boys to have much higher quality play and activities.

 

Look at all the toys most boys have sitting around unused.

 

Anyway, that's one of my theories about why boys like Cub Scouts. The ability of Cub Scouts to draw adults and parents into play with their children and high quality for their children are among the several reasons why parents are drawn to Cub Scouts.

 

 

[Stosh]

I guess I don't subscribe to the idea that without adults all boys resort to Lord of the Flies mentality. If I did, being pro-patrol-method, pro-boy-led, would not enter into my realm of awareness. If Cub Scouts is not a prep program for Boy Scout leadership development, then it might as well be a stand alone program and we need to quit trying to focus on any Webelos to Boy Scout transition efforts. Thinking that boys can't have fun without adult supervision, direction, or whatever, implies that young people can't have fun by themselves.

 

I grew up in an era where we had our programs and time as kids and at a different time we had time with our families. It's kinda like parents have time to go to work and the kids have time to go to school, and at a different time, they come together for family time. Not that the two were always mutually exclusive, but a guy's gotta have some time to be with his buddies without mom and dad constantly looking over their shoulder making sure they're having fun.

 

Too often with stage mothers, helicopter parents and soccer dads, it is the parent that is trying to relive their childhood through their kids and the kids end up with no life of their own. Independence, self-confidence and simple growing up is a rare commodity in today's world. BSA is one of the last bastions of that principle and it has taken a hard it in the past 20 years or so.

 

I guess with having worked with kids for the past 40 years, I have come to see those kids that grow up and have strength of character emulate adult behavior when given an opportunity to evaluate things on their own and adopt as part of their character without having to be told to do so or somehow interfered with by parents, teachers, pastors, etc. If you can't see this, you have never had teenaged kids.

 

Scouting is a lot more than settling for taking pride in being on the state champion football team as the water boy, because dad's got connections with the coach.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

Oh, I don't think you get Lord of the Flies behavior from Cub Scouts. Usually you just get rather low quality play from them as I describe. That'd why they can have a box full of toys at hand and still have nothing to do.

 

Som adult leadership is usually needed to have high quality play.

 

And I think parents, fathers usually, often don't know how to play very well with their sons. That's one of the things Cub Scouts teaches parents rather commonly in my experience.

 

Now boys of Boy Scout age -- THEY can do the Lord of the Flies stuff! That's why they need the adult framework and supervision Boy Scouts provides that provides focus and direction for that kind of energy.

 

I find that the methods of using competition should change as boys mature. The competition Boy Scouts thrive on is too much for a lot of Cub Scouts most of the time. They need some time and experience to learn how to deal with competition in positive ways, and some additional maturity for many or most.

 

I just don't see a need to push young boys into sharp kinds of competition. What's the rush?

[Stosh]

I am lead to believe that adults think kids have low-quality play, but if one polls the kids I don't think that's the same conclusion they would have. While it is noble to have all sorts of organized sports for the boys, I found sand-lot ball far more fun.

 

In this day and age of kids unable to leave home once they reach adulthood, I would think a program that provides the tools to grow up and be independent would be something parents would seek out.

 

I may be an exception to the rule, but I did learn from my buddies how to ride a bike and it didn't have training wheels.

 

I guess it just depends on what one wants for their children, independence or dependence.

 

Stosh

[drmbear]

The key to good leadership, particularly at the Cub Scout level, is that you set up your program over the course of the year so that you have lots of different ways to "win." What is considered "BEST" in one competition may not even have a chance in other competitions. The best looking car in the PWD is not necessarily the fastest, and in Boy Scouts I remember contests not only for speed, strength, fastest and longest swimming, etc., but also for things like orienteering and pioneering skills, firebuilding skills. At the camporee they were chunking pumpkins with catapults - what's the loss, even if you don't chunk them the farthest you still got to chunk pumpkins, right? I'm a Cubmaster, and there is a world of difference between what a 1st grader and a 5th grader can do, but we regularly have competitions where anyone in the pack can win, and most of the time there are many winners of different categories, each one celebrated with fun and lots of silliness, usually. The boys love it.