A Scout is Reverent - unless he works at scout camp

[momma_bee 10]

Hello folks - this isn't a problem, I'm interested in your opinions and personal observations.

 

I've think I've been here (the board) before - at least some names look familiar. I'm MBee, MommaBee, the proud Momma to a Life Scout and a just earned her Bronze and bridged, Cadette. Leader to both in some way or another throughout their career and my Sweetie - Poppa is currently the (burnt out) SM.

 

And, our son is working at Scout camp this year. By his account, and more importantly, according to his director and peers, it is going well.

 

Last week his sister Acolyted for the first time at church and he wanted to be there for her. He also had not been to church since May and expressed a desire to take Communion. I told him to talk to his director to say that he 'may' be late for the 11am meeting at camp.

 

I will admit, the week before he squeaked in at 11. And, I'm sure the words church, sister, or acolyte never came out of his mouth when he talked to the director. Knowing him, he just said "I may be late" (anything else is no ones business but his) and the directors response was "That is your choice."

 

We made it at 11. We left church at 9:45 and drove 65 miles, stopping for him to change into his uniform as we passed our house. Needless to say, we weren't obedient.

 

I questioned another parent / camp leader / district & council committee member when we arrived and said jokingly said that my son should have written "a Scout is Reverent" on the bulletin and given it to his boss.

 

I was told that he signed up for a job that started at 11am on Sunday and he was required to be there, in uniform and that is part of learning responsibility. He CHOSE to take a chance of being late and would not get permission to cover that. I then asked how the boys were supposed to go to church and was told that most boys that age don't want to go, even if someone offered a ride.

 

And, they do have a non-denom vesper service on Tuesday.

 

But my question is - do the boys who staff your camps have the opportunity to worship at a church of their choosing or do they skip church all summer?

 

Should they be granted that option?

 

MBee

 

 

[momma_bee 10]

To answer my own questions...

 

In our area, our camp is at least 20 minutes from all churches except one. That church has worship at 10, the other churches that I was able to check have services that start at, or after 10am.

 

Assuming at least 1 hour for a service, you can't do it. Even if your family wanted to visit another church, you wouldn't make it in by 11am.

 

And, as I think about it, I wouldn't want them to push the opening meeting to 12 - I don't think it gives them enough time.

 

But, I wish that they would 'excuse' a tardy arrival if you were tardy because of church. Yes, it could be exploited but I really think that my son deserves to be praised for honoring God, his family and his committment to his job and scouting, rather than running the risk of being chastised.

 

And, after listening to the meeting, I think a simple solution would be to do troop guides first and if you are late, you will be guiding. No one seems to want to do it, unless it is their own troop, so being late would guarantee a job in the sun and that would be the clear results of the choice.

 

And, I do think that telling a boy that if he planned to be late because of church, and brought a bulletin and pre-planned to guide, you couldn't argue he was shirking his duties.

 

These boys are attending at least 12 meetings a week. Late for one because of church doesn't sound too bad. I do know that if you are late in the morning, you are required to help in the kitchen after one of the meals. (he did that ONCE)

 

[gcnphkr 11]

The scouts that work at the camp my son works at can go to church. That camp is not in operation on Sunday because of the number of LDS units. But even is they were open on Sunday the scout should be able to check out to attend church, especially for something special like this.

 

I doubt if many on staff leave to go to church. Some will go home for the weekend and may go then. I'll check to see if the LDS staff leave or if they have a service at camp. They would need a bishop present and permission from their president.

[John-in-KC 311]

EagleSon calls his Pastor, they put together a time, and off he goes to visit and take the Lord's Supper.

 

There are Chaplains on staff at our Scout Reservations ... and one of their first jobs is to minister to the staff!

[Eagle69 46]

I can't speak for now, but 40 years ago when I was on Camp Staff we got off at Noon on Saturday and had to be back before Noon on Sunday. The Troops usually started arriving right after lunch and we had to be available in Uniform to escort them to their campsite, Health Lodge, Pool, etc. I doubt if our Camp Director would have would have been happy with you if you told him you were going to be later, for any reason. His philosophy was that you signed up for the job knowing the requirements and schedule and if you weren't there then somebody else would have to pick up the slack so maybe you weren't needed.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Awhile back I had a part time job at a hosptial. I worked every Saturday and Sunday, I don't remember being asked if that was ok nor was I given time off to attend church services, but I manged to make Mass evey Sunday I worked

[evmori 11]

Awhile back I had a part time job at a hosptial. I worked every Saturday and Sunday, I don't remember being asked if that was ok nor was I given time off to attend church services, but I manged to make Mass evey Sunday I worked

 

Did this hospital have a mission statement that stated the workers were to be reverent? I kinda doubt it. But it is great to hear you made tome to attend a worship service every Sunday, OGE! Great example of being reverent!

[momma_bee 10]

And, I have dither back and forth on how I feel about.

 

I agree the time is the time, but to hear someone tell me that 'it doesn't matter since the boys don't go' implies that the problem has been considered and dismissed.

 

A starting time of noon would mean being able to go to a local church at 10 and being on time.

 

As a Momma / leader - I like having the staff available and prepared. I like the campsites in excellent shape and that comes from them arriving at 11 and not allowing sign in to start until 1 or 2 (not sure since we didn't go this year)

 

I too did weekend work and had to be there at noon so I didn't worship those weeks, but it alternated.

 

It just made me wonder how other folks handle things.

 

Now, we are joining this congregation at the end of this month - wonder if we can make a flying trip again?

 

Staff Chaplains would be nice - ours is off-site and only comes to do vespers.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Ed, I understood my personal obligations and the requirements of my employer.

[John-in-KC 311]

The issue of the support a Staff Chaplain gives is IIRC a National Camp Standard (can someone check me on that?).

 

One way to push for a resident Chaplain (or at least available to the Staff for their spiritual issues) is to have your Chartered Organization Representative ask, by way of formal correspondence, the Chairs of the Council Relationships Committee and the Council Camping Committee "What's going on? Why aren't my youth members on Staff being given appropriate spiritual care?"

 

ETA: I would defer the joining ceremony (at least his) to after the season. Things like this can cause your son not to be rehired for the 2010 camping season. If you must, and I hope his Troop is chartered by your new church, then I would ask your IH/COR to send formal correspondence to the SE/Camp Director, requesting the presence of your son, and citing the 12th point.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[shortridge 184]

To answer the question: My local camp starts at noon on Sundays. Everyone's required to be there on the dot for a staff meeting. Uniforms required if you're a guide or running a program area orientation; aquatics staff can usually get by in t-shirts and swim trunks, but they have to have their uniforms on hand for a quick change before retreat and dinner.

 

Everyone knows this schedule when they're hired, and I've never heard of a problem with it. Some staff members I used to work with did go to Sunday morning services on occasion. But most of us just went back home (if we lived close enough) and crashed on Saturday night, waking up barely in time on Sunday to get back to camp. Even if we were religious, we were generally too exhausted to even think of getting up early to sit in a pew.

 

Let's look at a hypothetical example of a Jewish staff member who wants to attend Friday evening services at the local synagogue. Fridays are generally the big special program and closing campfire nights, where everyone's needed. I would hope that if the staff member approached the PD or CD and explained his situation, there would be some sort of accomodation made. Perhaps the staff member could take Friday night off instead of a night earlier in the week. Perhaps he could pull some extra duty somewhere to help make up for his absence - like volunteering to build the campfire during the day.

 

On the other hand, the weekly start-of-camp meetings are very important for making sure everyone's on the same page, and I can understand why the CD might be reluctant to let people come in late. There's information that needs to be shared (broken showers, weather reports, trail closings, unit counts, special visitors, etc.). But if a Scout plans it out in advance and discusses his worship situation with the director ahead of time - not a week ahead, not the day before - I would really hope that things could be worked out.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[shortridge 184]

John,

 

That's Standard 39 (not a mandatory standard, however). It reads as follows:

 

A full-time or part-time chaplaincy service is provided by

(1) A person who is recognized as a qualified clergyman or seminarian by his or her own church body and is 21 years of age or older.

OR

(2) An individual who is at least 21 years of age, possesses mature judgment, has a certificate of training from the Chaplain section of National Camping School, and is approved by the local council relationships committee/council executive. Their responsibilities would not include specific ordained responsibilities or tasks such as the sacraments.

 

 

The 2009 camp standards and other such info can be found here, thanks to the Northeast Region: http://nerbsa.org/program/campschool/residentcamps.aspx

[John-in-KC 311]

Shortridge,

 

Thank you, Sir

[CalicoPenn 729]

Perhaps we should consider this in a broader view. A Scout is Reverent is a point of the Scout Law that Scouts should be doing their best to adhere to in their everyday lives. No where does the BSA suggest that a Scout must attend religious services once per week. Can attending religious services be part of being Reverent? Yes - no doubt about that - but Scouts that never attend religious services can also be Reverent.

 

In all of our lives, there come's times when, because of the choices we willingly make, we have to adjust to a different reality - temporarily or permanently. How we adjust to that new reality is a big test of our character. Taking a job that begins at 11:00 am on a Sunday while knowing that one attends church every Sunday morning means an adjustment may need to be made - and the burden to adjust is on the individual, not the employer. If the burden is too great to bear, the position should be declined. In my opinion, a good strength of character is shown either in accepting that regular Sunday morning services are out of the picture for a short period of time and adjusting accordingly, or in declining such a position because of a conviction that an obligation to attend Sunday services every week no matter what is paramount. A choice to "sneak in" late seems to undermine one's character - at least it does in my eyes - in that "I admire your dedication to go to church every Sunday but what about the committment you made to the camp and your co-workers?" kind of way. A good Camp Director will always make an exception for a special event, such as a sister being acolyted for the first time.

 

 

[SSScout 1615]

I once worked at a hospital that had a very diverse workforce. It was informally known that the Jewish folks worked over the Christmas holiday and the Christian folk worked thru Roshasanna and Hannikah. We even had a few Hindus that fit in their festivals here and there. The trade offs were done in good humor, with the supervisors blessing.

'Course, that might not work in a Scout Camp, but I'm sure some accomodation could be made with some advance knowledge, if not taken advantage of.

I was not aware of the Chaplain requirement and training alternative. Thank you for that note.

I agree that A Scout Is Reverent can not be totally dependant on ONLY attending ones House of Worship. The idea that ones faith should be practiced and 'visible' in everyday life is inherent in evey faith that I know of, not just mine.

I would encourage the Camp Director to see the benefit of making it easier (?) for his staff to atttend the faith of their choice at least on accasion, if not "on site".

Father Mulcahy, where are you?