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Bad Manners displayed by Adults

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When the answer is right in front of you, and you guys keep arguing, its clear to me you don't want to know the answer, you just want to argue.


It doesn't matter how you were raised, what your religion is, etc. Per BSA regulations: MALE SCOUTS & SCOUTERS DON'T WEAR THEIR HATS INDOORS unless part of an official ceremony, and even then, not if prohibited by local custom. If you're unsure of the local custom: FIND OUT BY ASKING IN ADVANCE!


Bottom line: follow the Insignia Guide!


My goodness, how much simpler could it be? You may continue with your arguing now . . .

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Yah, except the Insignia Guide refers only to official BSA headgear when worn with the uniform, eh? I think the original poster was talkin' about wearin' hats more generally.


Fascinatin' bit of history about the Quakers there, SSS!


Origin of "hat courtesy" in the west seems to have been an association with helmets. Removing a helmet (and thereby leaving yourself exposed to attack) was a sign of respect or subservience. Wearing a helmet indoors, especially as a guest (and thus being prepared for attack) would be quite rude, eh? :)


That probably explains why Jewish and Islamic culture runs opposite, requiring or expecting a hat indoors, especially at church/prayer. This was also more important for hygiene in years past, I expect, much as hats for food service workers are still required.


In surfin' around, I was interested to learn that prior to the late 40s it was considered quite impolite for a man to be seen outdoors without a hat. I wonder where that came from? In fact President Kennedy was the first U.S. President to appear outdoors without a hat on.


I reckon the indoor rules for hats started weakening about the same time, eh?



(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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As a young lad, I was invited to my best friend's bar mitzvah. Upon entering the synagogue, there was a box of yarmulkes at the door for visitors. I didn't think twice, and put one on. After the service an older gentleman came up to me and thanked me for respecting their customs. The yarmulke is worn as a reminder that there is always a higher power above us. As it didn't interfere with my Lutheran upbringing, I thought it only right to try to honor my friend by partaking in his religion.


I do wish the custom of men wearing hats would come back (not the ubiquitous redneck ball cap). Matt Lauer seems to be pulling it off well. (Hey, I've been sick and had to watch a lot of daytime TV!). My only problem is head size...something above a size 8. Hard to find, even in "one size fits all".

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Beavah, the OP was talking about Scouters at an RT.


Yah, but they weren't wearin' official BSA headgear, eh? ;)


I don't reckon anybody's arguin'. We're just talkin' around a campfire about somethin' that seems kinda interesting.




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Bad manners displayed by one Scout's Mom. This Scout is newly appointed as Troop Guide in our Troop. He is very smart and knows his Scout skills, but he has a lot of learning to do in helping others and leadership. He's one of those guys that always has an excuse for why he doesn't do things or follow through and his Mom is ready to defend him at every turn. I knew it was going to be difficult, but I really thought it was time to help him grow.


A couple of weeks ago, his lack of planning resulted in the consequence of having to take a tent home to refold and return the next week. He wasn't excited about it, but he understood it was his responsibility. His Mom made a huge scene in the parking lot. "Why does he have to bring this home?" "I'm not putting this thing in MY car." "She's just picking on you." "There are other Troops around."


The next day I got several emails from a few Scouts, parents, and leaders that were there for the parking lot scene. They all said essentially that it wouldn't be much of a loss to let the Mom go find another Troop. They may be right, I've had many conferences with this kid and then listened to his Mother berate me for it, but I have actually seen a change in this Scout and I'm not ready to throw in the towel.


A couple of days after the parking lot incident I got an email from the Mom. About a month ago I mentioned NYLT coming up in June and how it would benefit her son. She rolled her eyes at me and said she'd think about it. In the email she just sent she asked about when the deposit was due for NYLT. No mention of anything that happened Monday.


I really want to work with this kid, but am getting very weary of Mom. How can I possibly help her son grow and learn as a Scout and in his POR, most likely resulting in hard lessons for him, by having to worry about his Mom making a scene.



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If you really wish to help the boy you will have to put up with the mother. Two options are have a heart to heart with her and be ready to lose your head. In the long run it might sink in.

The second is to continue to politely and calmly listen when she rants. All she is doing is making a fool of herself. With luck your non-response will cause her to give up on attacking you. Be prepared for an escalation before it works.

Either is hard. 


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The Scout knows...


Ultimately, he is the one who must deal with the Mom With No Limits.

If he has convinced her to let him go to NYLT, then facilitate that. Answer her questions directly and accurately. Do not make it personal. Do not rise to her bait, even if she doesn't know it's bait. Do not attempt to defend yourself from her attacks, it won't matter and she will not admit to the correctness of your comments, if any. Put on your relationship raincoat and let her rants roll off your back. You be there for the boy. Be the bigger person.

Learn to say the following : "I'm sorry you feel that way". Use liberally, then bring the conversation immediately back to the topic. Do Not Respond In Kind.

Done often enough, evenly enough, you MAY eventually, by your example, help the boy. He will declare his independance, as he can, and the MWNL will have to adapt. It's probably too late for the MWNL, but you never can tell.


Good luck.

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>>I really want to work with this kid, but am getting very weary of Mom. How can I possibly help her son grow and learn as a Scout and in his POR, most likely resulting in hard lessons for him, by having to worry about his Mom making a scene.

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       From as early as I can remember my father saying "Treat every woman as a Lady until she proves herself to be otherwise. Then treat her as a Lady because you are a gentleman." This served me well until the 80's but I still refused to change my values to show "respect" ? for others. I too had the unfortunate experience to be accused of sexism and worse for offering my seat to a member of the opposite gender. My most frustrating moment was being ridiculed for referring to two Woodbadge staff as "Ladies" being told that it was derogatory and implied that they were not as capable as the males. This was in the late 90's. While social focus changes I believe values should be more permanent.


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The scouters who kept their hats on probably weren't trying to be disrespectful. They probably weren't thinking/didn't know better. Were I the one conducting the meeting, I would have (gently) reminded all present that hats should be removed when entering a chapel. Were I in attendance, I would have asked the person conducting what was appropriate, hoping that they would then announce to all what was proper.

My thoughts,


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All this about HATS?

I learned manners the Southern way and I still say "yes, Ma'm" and "no, Ma'm". The yankees love it. When they hear me speak, yankee women my age crowd in and ask me to, "...say something else...". Cheap thrills...yeah!


Well, at least I've learned a whole lot more about the customs of the Catholic church than I knew 10 minutes ago. But Beavah, if you take a gander at the photos on this website you'll see both Truman and Eisenhower outside with bare heads:



By the way, has anyone ever noticed the similarity of Ike's appearance to Homer Simpson? And if Samuel Jackson was white....I mean, WOW!

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mk9750 writes:As the original poster, it was three adult males at a roundtable wearing hats indoors that caused me to comment about any male wearing any hat anywhere indoors.Well, since this is a Scouting forum after all, how people wear hats away from Scouting isn't an issue for me, whether it be a result of poor upbringing or otherwise.


But as Scouters, there is no excuse for not following the requirements in the Insignia Guide, once a Scouter becomes aware of them.

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