That's one way to leave a unit

[Armymutt]

Well, last night went poorly.  There was a squabble between some teenage Scouts and my 11 y/o son.  The teenagers claim he spit on them, despite being on methylphenidate, which dries up his mouth.  Apparently, he and another 11 y/o were hanging out in one of the permanent tents, talking, dancing, and doing 11 y/o things.  One of the teenagers forced his way in.  They tried to push him back out.  Everything escalated until there were allegations  of spitting, pushing, and a death threat from my kid.  Scoutmaster declared that he was calling the police because he had enough evidence to do so and stormed off.  A bit later, two folks from the council show up.  They had a conversation for about 45 minutes.  Called me over and we all agreed to move to the admin building to get out of the rain and talk to everyone there.  My son and his buddy went first, separately.  His dad was also present.  The two 11 y/os essentially told the same story of the events.  We departed and headed back to camp while the SM and another leader stayed with the other boys.  The council guy told me that we'd have to have a discussion back at camp as leader to determine the next step.  We got back to camp and sent the little boys to bed.  We stayed in the shelter and talked a bit.  I told him that no matter what happened, we were leaving the troop soon.  He tried to convince me to stay, pointing out that the SM only had 6 month before his son made Eagle and they all departed.  SM came back with the other leader.  He recommended going to bed, but the other dad said that we are already up, so let's discuss it now.  SM say, fine, you need to take your kid home in the morning.  No discussion, nada.  I objected and he said he made a death threat, so he has to go.  I told him we would depart tonight because there's no point in sleeping in the rain.  He left the shelter.  The problem is, I had volunteered to run the knot station for the camporee.  I asked the other dad if he could do it, and started covering the knots and how the station would run.  We then hear the SM yell out of the darkness "Armymutt, are you f****** talking s*** about me?"  He came closer.  "I will f****** end you!"  He entered the shelter. "That's a threat of physical violence against you, if that isn't clear!"  He then stormed off, leaving the three of us in shock.  Both of the other two dads in the shelter yelled to him that I was explaining how the knot station would run, but he ignored them.  I told the dad I was talking to earlier that this is what is causing me to leave.  He said, "I understand now."  

I woke my son up and told him to pack and that we were leaving the troop.  He said, "Thank you."  That kind of broke my heart a bit.  I got my stuff in my car and took my staff t-shirt over to the guy replacing me.  As I was walking back to pack my son, the SM came over and tried to apologize.  I told him that he did not have a Scout troop.  They spend the meeting playing around and then go play a game.  They are a bunch of bullies who found an easy target in an autistic 11 y/o and get their jollies from setting him off and then reporting him.  I then finished helping my son get his stuff in the car and got home at 3AM.    

To me, regardless of what went on between the Scouts, it should have been handled internally.  This is a squabble between kids, not some major crime scene.  I've noticed a pattern of over reaction to little issues between the SM and the CC, his wife.  Everything requires documentation and a report to council.  They are constantly having people down to investigate something - usually my kid.  He said they have had lots of complaint from parents about me.  They can't say specifically what those complaints are, and the other Scouters in the troop have the same reaction when I told them - "For what?  Sitting down with Scouts to help them work on advancement?"  What really gets me is that he demanded my kid go home for the same thing he did 5 minutes later, and at a much louder and more forceful volume and tone.  

I have notified the folks from the council that we talked to last night.  I already had a transition plan in place to a troop I previously visited to see if our troop was normal, and I like their SM team.  I wanted to hold out until summer camp was over because I don't want to abandon my son's friend that we invited to the troop.  The new troop is 30 minutes north of us and they live 20 minutes south of us.  Having them switch there isn't going to work.  It became clear to me just how toxic this troop was getting when they told a mom that they wouldn't approve anything thing to do with getting Eagle for her son.  He's the youngest of a group that recently aged out and lost his motivation.  I've known him for years through Cub Scout Day Camp as a Scout volunteer and consider him to be a good kid.  He's just been getting in a bit of trouble lately, overwhelmed with parents going through a divorce.  That'll be another thread, but I'm working on creating a Venturing Crew to allow him and his buddies to continue Scouting together with more adventure and a focus on life skills adults need, and for him to finish Eagle.  

At this point, I don't know what my next move is.  Do I contact the COR?  My son has about $800 in his Scout account that I would like to use for summer camp elsewhere.  I know those funds actually belong to the CO, etc, etc.  However, given the conditions in which our departure was necessitated and the fact that my son does not feel safe in that troop, I don't know that it would be out of line to request those funds be transferred to the new troop.  Who else should I contact about a SM making threats of physical harm to an ASM?  Technically, it's a criminal offense, but I'm not one to call the police on something like that.  I just don't want some information operation getting launched against me or my son.  The troop has already changed SB to make me Unit Scouter Reserve.  

[BetterWithCheddar]

 

 

17 hours ago, Armymutt said:

At this point, I don't know what my next move is.  Do I contact the COR?  My son has about $800 in his Scout account that I would like to use for summer camp elsewhere.  I know those funds actually belong to the CO, etc, etc.  However, given the conditions in which our departure was necessitated and the fact that my son does not feel safe in that troop, I don't know that it would be out of line to request those funds be transferred to the new troop. 

I'm a pretty frugal guy, but $800 isn't a significant barrier to my son's well-being. You could ask tactfully about transferring the funds to a different unit and see what happens. Otherwise, be prepared to move on.

 

17 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Who else should I contact about a SM making threats of physical harm to an ASM?  Technically, it's a criminal offense, but I'm not one to call the police on something like that.  I just don't want some information operation getting launched against me or my son.  The troop has already changed SB to make me Unit Scouter Reserve.  

I would take a few days to cool down and then probably take no further action unless you truly felt there were YP issues in the former unit. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a messy back-and-forth with someone bent on torpedoing your involvement in Scouting. Embrace the fresh start but also have realistic expectations about your child's Scouting experience. I don't think there are many top-notch units left. Best care scenario, you find one where a few well-meaning parents are doing their best to get kids outside.

[scoutldr]

44 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

 

One adult threatening bodily harm against another in a Scout setting, I believe IS a YP issue.  Let Council deal with him.  Sounds like there were plenty of witnesses.

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

53 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

One adult threatening bodily harm against another in a Scout setting, I believe IS a YP issue.  Let Council deal with him.  Sounds like there were plenty of witnesses.

 

19 hours ago, Armymutt said:

 Everything escalated until there were allegations of spitting, pushing, and a death threat from my kid.  Scoutmaster declared that he was calling the police because he had enough evidence to do so and stormed off.

 

@scoutldr, I don't disagree. The SM's behavior, as described, is abhorrent. However, you also have the SM claiming the 11 y/o scout issued the first death threat. Would you really want the OP to risk their son's membership in the BSA's kangaroo court? Both parties need to move on and be done.

[scoutldr]

9 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

 

 

@scoutldr, I don't disagree. The SM's behavior, as described, is abhorrent. However, you also have the SM claiming the 11 y/o scout issued the first death threat. Would you really want the OP to risk their son's membership in the BSA's kangaroo court? Both parties need to move on and be done.

I'd be more inclined to give the 11 yo a second chance after appropriate counseling.  An adult that can't control his anger in front of the Scouts needs to be gone.

[DuctTape]

Over the decades I have heard many youth exclaim "i'm gonna kill you", and never was it an actual death threat. Heck my little sister would say it to me when I teased her. It was/is a common expression kids use. It might not be appropriate, but calling it a death threat is over the top. 

[Armymutt]

23 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

 

 

I'm a pretty frugal guy, but $800 isn't a significant barrier to my son's well-being. You could ask tactfully about transferring the funds to a different unit and see what happens. Otherwise, be prepared to move on.

You're correct.  I didn't realize it had become as bad as it is.  The level of bullying really stepped on with this one.  I can't think of a single reason for a group of teenagers to go into a tent and start picking on 2 11 y/os.  

9 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Over the decades I have heard many youth exclaim "i'm gonna kill you", and never was it an actual death threat. Heck my little sister would say it to me when I teased her. It was/is a common expression kids use. It might not be appropriate, but calling it a death threat is over the top. 

The more I think about it, if an actual death threat was communicated, wouldn't they have lead with that one rather than "he spit on me"?  So either the death threat wasn't enough to make a reasonable person fear for their life, or it didn't happen.  The only witnesses just so happen to be the kids who initiated the conflict.  Under NC General Statutes, the SM's statement does constitute a misdemeanor and all of the elements were met.  I realize it is just now Monday, but it's been radio silence from council and the COR.  Seems to me that an actual crime committed in front of several witnesses on council property would initiate some major damage control procedures.  I'm not sure that unit has much life left.  The guy I was talking to at the time is one of two families that came from the pack.  He talked to the other one.  He said they are going to stick around for summer camp, understandable, and "re-evaluate".  The kid that we brought into the troop a couple months ago will be finding another troop immediately.  His grandfather is another active adult who didn't grow up in the US, so he's sitting back and watching for now, but is active when it comes to adult operations in camp.  I'm due to have a conversation with two other Scouts and their mom who were actively recruited by the SM to bring a dose of maturity into the troop.  They are both Eagles and 17.5.  One was thinking about running for SPL just to try to get things on track.  The other one woke up Saturday to find we were gone and texted his mom because he was concerned.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

I can't think of a single reason for a group of teenagers to go into a tent and start picking on 2 11 y/os.  

I can: bad parenting

 

[Tron]

Wow. That's a rough situation, I think you're handling it the best you can. 

 

The only thing I think you should pursue is an email to your DE and whomever he is reporting to. You want to make sure that they are aware of the unprovoked threat against you by the SM. Dont do this to pursue punishment, do this for a paper trail. Make sure the other witnesses are listed in your email. That SM has a problem and the professional staff needs to know; that SM is going to escalate, it's just a matter of time. You dont want him stepping down as SM and then sliding his S-show into a district or council position.

[Eagle94-A1]

Concur with @Tron, document EVERYTHING. Include witnesses, quotes, EVERYTHING. And send it to multiple folks: DE, SE, COR, etc.

Closest I have had to deal with was on camp staff. A Scout was being sent home  for behavior reasons, but was hit by an adult, and had a black eye. Mom made comments about YP and reporting the issue. What she didn't know was her son, after he was told to pack his things because he was going home, picked up a stick, and charged the 18 y.o. ASM. The ASM automatically  countered the attack. OH and he attacked the ASM in front of the SM and the entire troop while they were getting ready to go to dinner. LOT OF PAPERWORK WITH THAT ONE! ( major emphasis, not shouting.) 

 

Moral is DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT! (again, emphasis).

Good Luck.

 

[Armymutt]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I can: bad parenting

 

Ok, I can't think of a single valid, Scouting reason why...

 

Seriously though, I'm struggling with what to do.  I do not want to see this guy at a Scouting event in the future and definitely don't want him around my kids.  There are only two ways that happens.  One stays within Scouting America, the other makes the incident a matter of public record.  

I immediately notified the council Director of Outdoor Programs and the Program Manager, as they were there that night.  I'm surprised I haven't heard back from anyone.  I'm going to email the SE tomorrow and ask to talk on Wed.  I'm hoping my son likes this new unit tonight and I'm up in Raleigh to buy new numbers.  

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Concur with @Tron, document EVERYTHING. Include witnesses, quotes, EVERYTHING. And send it to multiple folks: DE, SE, COR, etc.

Closest I have had to deal with was on camp staff. A Scout was being sent home  for behavior reasons, but was hit by an adult, and had a black eye. Mom made comments about YP and reporting the issue. What she didn't know was her son, after he was told to pack his things because he was going home, picked up a stick, and charged the 18 y.o. ASM. The ASM automatically  countered the attack. OH and he attacked the ASM in front of the SM and the entire troop while they were getting ready to go to dinner. LOT OF PAPERWORK WITH THAT ONE! ( major emphasis, not shouting.) 

 

Moral is DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT! (again, emphasis).

Good Luck.

 

I talked to the one dad who covered the knots for me and he said the Director was out there the next day collecting statements.  The fact that no one has contacted me is frustrating.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

So, this will still be calming down over the next few days, but:

1.  You should seriously consider filing charges against the guy.  He communicated a verbal threat.  Should at least be a misdemeanor, depending on state.

2.  Talk directly with your Scout Executive.  No middle man.  DE is middle man.  Tell him what happened and the impact on your Scout, you, and the unit.  His behavior is unacceptable in a Scouting environment and should be removed.  Immediately.  Give the SE names of witnesses.

3.  If after careful consideration, talk with your spouse, and prayer, you decide from #1 it is best to file charges, then contact your local DA's office, or contact police to file a report.  Have the courtesy to let your SE know you are going to do this.  It is not up to him.  This decision is yours.  Give the po-po the names of the witnesses.

4.  Consider hiring an attorney.

5.  Expect to be removed from Scouting until this is resolved.  Yes, you may be guilt-free in the incident... the SE does not care.  He has to protect the image of Scouting, and protect youth (probably in that order), and removing you may help him in his priority of image and brand protection.  If he chooses to remove (suspend) you, he also should remove or suspend the other leader until resolved.

6.  Look into your local Trail Life chapter.  I find the Scouts BSA environment to be getting a little toxic lately, too, with all the intolerance of youth behavior that should be admonished and corrected, rather than knee-jerk reported...  We still police ourselves in-unit, and have begun to avoid all district or council events because of the horrible behavior of other Scouts and leaders.  Yours is a case in point.

7.  Move to New Jersey / Pennsylvania and come join our Troop.

Edited March 30 by InquisitiveScouter

[jcousino]

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Concur with @Tron, document EVERYTHING. Include witnesses, quotes, EVERYTHING. And send it to multiple folks: DE, SE, COR, etc.

Closest I have had to deal with was on camp staff. A Scout was being sent home  for behavior reasons, but was hit by an adult, and had a black eye. Mom made comments about YP and reporting the issue. What she didn't know was her son, after he was told to pack his things because he was going home, picked up a stick, and charged the 18 y.o. ASM. The ASM automatically  countered the attack. OH and he attacked the ASM in front of the SM and the entire troop while they were getting ready to go to dinner. LOT OF PAPERWORK WITH THAT ONE! ( major emphasis, not shouting.) 

 

Moral is DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT! (again, emphasis).

Good Luck.

 

Youth hit by adult direct call to DCPS or police no if and or but. Failing to report is likely a felony in some states. Tell Scout personnel not to release you as a mandatory reporter.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Youth hit by adult direct call to DCPS or police no if and or but. Failing to report is likely a felony in some states. Tell Scout personnel not to release you as a mandatory reporter.

Funny you mention police.  We had a sheriff deputy on staff, and he was in his jurisdiction. Don't remember if he initiated the investigation after calling it in, or was assisting the investigation after he called it in. So I didn't have to call them, they were already notified.  I do know the adult was never arrested, nor kicked out of Scouting as I saw him a year later. He told me he did press charges against the kid for assault with a deadly weapon. Having 15+ witnesses is probably  saved the adult from arrest and dismissal.

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I talked to the one dad who covered the knots for me and he said the Director was out there the next day collecting statements.  The fact that no one has contacted me is frustrating.  

I would start collecting my own statements. If the guy was at the event after you left, he is only getting one side, and it may not be good for you. I have seen innocent people get kicked out of Scouting. @InquisitiveScouter is giving you very, VERY good advice. Good luck.