Troop Culture vs Scouting Methods

[ramanous]

Give me your opinions on how much leeway is appropriate for troops to "customize" the scouting program for their troop. Preferably real-world examples would be good: what you think is acceptable and what is not. Its an open-ended question.

Those of you on the district/council end, what did you do to correct? I know "training, training, training" but I find some unit leaders (am I alone in despising the term "leaders" applied to Scouters?) already know it all and think they have a better way. 

I'm dealing with a few troops now how have isolated themselves from the district. I understand that you cannot force a troop to participate in district and council events, but too me, this should be a red flag. Got another troop, same district, almost as bad, and actively refuse to send youth to council's NYLT. I'm convinced the SM of that troop is a narcissist, and gaslighting most of the parents, adult volunteers about how scouting works. Got on my radar because one of the parent's is an Eagle and decided to go around the SM to get his kid into NYLT. Problem is the only other troop that family could transfer to is the other one (nothing else nearby.) Very frustrating. 

 

[DuctTape]

As long as the troop is using the methods of Scouting and following the "rules" regarding youth protection, guide to advancement etc... I see ultimate leeway. The council and district events are not necessary. Whether or not the troop is actually providing a true scouting program via the methods is a different question altogether.

[ramanous]

The Aims & Methods has a lot to do with it, but then what do you do when the SM insists its a youth led troop when its obviously not. Or, their idea of the Patrol Method is to mix up patrols (which is clearly discouraged in the troop leadership guides). The reason for refusing NYLT is the scouts might learn how BSA wants troops to function, not how the SM thinks it should work. 

[SSScout]

If the Scouts and parents and (?)Leaders are properly registered, the Council at least should have everyone's email and USPS addresses. Send the info directly to them. 

[scoutldr]

524-95625-Annual-Charter-Agreement.pdf

Section II.A.

[Eagle1993]

Unless BSA has trained professionals leading every Troop you will see a wide variety of quality.  Make sure YPT and G2SS is followed, there should be no exceptions there.   Many Troops could improve on the Patrol method, most on uniform.  Provide some guidance to the leaders and let them run the show. 

If there is a really strong, well run Troop in the area, perhaps try and schedule a visit.  There has always been quality differences between Troops, it is a tough decision to determine what is good enough.

[Tron]

Let me start with I think there is unfortunately a lot of leeway going on because so many councils are in life support mode and don't want to risk a whole troop or pack dropping from the rolls. It is the wild west out there because membership numbers are so important right now and the paid scouters seem to want to keep their job more than running a quality program. 

We have a unit in my district right now that we all know is a paper only unit that the CO is trying to keep alive for some reason. A member of the key 3 was removed from scouting for committing and being convicted of a felony. No one is trained. No program is being provided. We're not even sure if the scouts are real; all we know is that the CO pays for 5 adult, 5 youth memberships and a recharter every year. The unit "meets" out of district. The unit never attends any district or council function. This is a prime unit for charter revocation, completely not running the program or even trying, yet nothing is done. 

[Tron]

13 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Unless BSA has trained professionals leading every Troop you will see a wide variety of quality.  Make sure YPT and G2SS is followed, there should be no exceptions there.   Many Troops could improve on the Patrol method, most on uniform.  Provide some guidance to the leaders and let them run the show. 

If there is a really strong, well run Troop in the area, perhaps try and schedule a visit.  There has always been quality differences between Troops, it is a tough decision to determine what is good enough.

I don't think councils care about GTSS. In my experience it's all about not having a near miss or reportable YPT incident. Units can basically do whatever they want as long as no abuse happens. I got pulled into some non-sense with a unit last year where they were repeatedly violating the GTSS. Event with parents and leaders asking me for help and guidance the key leaders of the unit wouldn't take any suggestions. I escalated the issue to council because I could see the situation spiraling out of control. Nothing was done, I started getting the cold shoulder at district and council level and meetings were always "we'll set that up later".  Then a serious incident that pulled national in happened; that's the only point that anyone from district or council cared about GTSS. It takes a professional scouters job being on the line to bring GTSS compliance. 

[Eagle94-A1]

40 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Unless BSA has trained professionals leading every Troop you will see a wide variety of quality. 

As a former pro, I can tell you even with professionals leading every troop, the quality will vary.

 

22 hours ago, ramanous said:

I'm dealing with a few troops now how have isolated themselves from the district. I understand that you cannot force a troop to participate in district and council events, but too me, this should be a red flag. 

Yes it is a red flag, one that says the council is not supporting the units, at least in my experience with 2 different councils. 

Districts and councils are there to support the unit, not the other way around. If a unit is in need of help from the district/council, and is constantly being ignored, the unit will start isolating themselves.

If unit leaders work to put on events, and  do not get the support they need to run the event, get  overruled on things, or the event is cancelled last minute despite everything being in place and ready to go, but the "budget surplus" is not being met, then units will start isolating themselves.

If a unit attends their council summer camp, and it is an absolute Charley Foxtrot;  with the suggestions and recommendations to improve  the camp and its program are ignored, then you will have units doing their own thing.

The irony in my experience is that the leaders of these units were usually some of the most active, pro council volunteers. In one council I was in, the units in question had former district committee members, Silver Beavers and OA Vigils in them. They were accused of being "Council Kool Aid Drinkers ( I know, Jim Jones used Flavor Aid), because they were at one time so supportive of council. Ditto on the second council I have seen this occur.

[ramanous]

The district and council committee is primary comprised on the CORs of the units. And, at least in my limited experience, the members-at-large are all unit adults. So, when the unit says the district doesn't support them, how do you flip that around? 

Stacking the committee with insiders results from the units fighting for their share of declining resources. The political power isn't there to load the district committees with neutral members. In theory, the council president should be preventing this through the nominating process but "good ole'" club politics is getting in the way.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

The district and council committee is primary comprised on the CORs of the units. And, at least in my limited experience, the members-at-large are all unit adults.

How many CORs are actually active on the district and council level? In my long experience, I only know of two. One was a former SM. The other was already active on the district level, and elected District Chairman when he was "appointed to be the COR. The members-at-large are usually the ones doing the actual work.

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

So, when the unit says the district doesn't support them, how do you flip that around? 

1. Pros should not ignore the unit Scouters when they need help. Listen to them as they are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program to recruit members. They know what works and what doesn't. While some have been Scouters a short time, others have years, even decades, of experience.

2. Pros need listen to your district level Scouters as they tend to have a lot more knowledge, skills, and experience than the pros do, especially in the service area. While Pros can stay 3-5 years in an assignment, in my neck of the  wood the average 9 months. One DE left in under 30 days.

3. Do not second guess, over rule, etc the volunteers when they are assigned something to do. Best example is volunteer who was "voluntold" he was running a district camporee with 7 weeks notice because the camporee chief quit (see 4 below). Pro didn't interfere that year and it was a successful camporee. Volunteer agreed to do the following year. The Pros interfered so much it caused major headaches for the volunteer, and the event to go overbudget. Supplies were not ordered,  so  those supplies had to purchased locally at a higher cost. Camp got triple booked over the objections of the two folks running ITOLS and the camporee. This caused the campwide compass course to be redone hours before opening, and additional supplies not budgeted to deal with the anticipated parking issues and to designate the Cub area from the Scout areas. And I can go on and on about the interference. That volunteer promised to never run another district event ever again.

4. Pros need to remember "a Scout is Courteous."  They should not yell, berate, and curse out volunteers. Especially ones who are also business leaders in the community. Not only will folks willing to volunteer dry up, but also FOS dollars will as well. Some long time businesses donors heard about these things, and stopped giving.

 

More later

[ramanous]

I may have proposed the question wrong. If the units are complaining about lack of district support, yet all of the district committee members are from the units. In other words, they are complaining about the lack of support that is of their own doing. 

Thanks for the tips. That's all well understood. I am a volunteer, and I also have decades of organizational management experience in a business context. I see the problem, but I don't have any control over fixing it.  All I can do is ask them to show-up. 

 

 

[Eagle1993]

2 minutes ago, ramanous said:

I may have proposed the question wrong. If the units are complaining about lack of district support, yet all of the district committee members are from the units. In other words, they are complaining about the lack of support that is of their own doing. 

Thanks for the tips. That's all well understood. I am a volunteer, and I also have decades of organizational management experience in a business context. I see the problem, but I don't have any control over fixing it.  All I can do is ask them to show-up. 

 

 

I always wondered why we wouldn't look to either 20-30 year old ex scouts or 55+ year old aging scouters to fill District roles (basically avoiding parents of scout aged kids).  In my area, most District roles are filled by unit volunteers, burning them out or having them choose between helping their unit or helping the District.

[ramanous]

How are your district people selected? Who is nominating your members-at-large? Who is appointing members of your nominating committee? I speculate the most innocuous reason is due to limited social networks. More egregious reasons are egos, gatekeeping and controlling district resources.

[InquisitiveScouter]

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves...

We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. 

First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities.

We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. 

Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less

Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out.

Side note:  notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule?  I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask..  Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%.  If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.)

Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture:

1.  Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions.  We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on.

2.  Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 

3.  It is not about your kid.  You are here for all.  The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom).  During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment.

4.  Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements)  Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip.  We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice.

5.  We pay for all required training.  For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS.  You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost.

6.  We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!)  We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft).  We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?)  Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics.

7.  A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety.  We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier".  With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it.

8.  We police each other.  Youth Protection is fiercely enforced.  Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly.  Most infractions are due to ignorance.  Ignorance can be cured...

9.  Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..."  When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication.

There are more facets here, but I'll stop.

We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets.  And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely.

In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp.  So, we made our own, and they had a blast.  (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.)  The Scouts absolutely loved it!  The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports.

Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp.  The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps.  So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. 

(By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of  $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...]

We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events.  This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

Edited 6 hours ago by InquisitiveScouter