Could SM authorize PLC to sign off on "Scout spirit" rank requirements?

[SSScout 1616]

Passing the test....

In Cub Scouts, it is sufficient that the adult see that the Cub "did their best"... Encouragement to try again, to make a greater effort is fine, ought to be part of the process, but the Cub needs to ONLY be seen as "doing your best..."

In Scouts BSA,   the test MUST be met, the skill MUST be mastered.   This is perhaps one of the reasons Morse Code, Wig Wag, Semiphore is no longer required. (another discussion).

Once upon a time, I worked with a Scout for his Totin Chip.  His mom (a single parent) was an anxious  parent.  "Johnny" was an eager to try anything Scout.  Our Troop requirement included making a "GOOD" tent peg to demonstrate the mastering of the use of the hatchet.  Most Scouts in my experience needed a couple or three tries. Johnny took a 36"  stick, and eventually made a really nice, near perfect tent peg that was about 8" long.  I can't remember a more proud boy.  His mom came to me several days later and asked me what I had done to her son?  He had this stick and wouldn't let it go ! And he made his bed ! 

[SiouxRanger 491]

Not sure where this fits, if anywhere, in this topic.

In my day, just post the last glaciation, patrol leaders and assistant patrol leaders would routinely sign off on skill requirements from Tenderfoot to First Class. Adults also signed off, but at that usually on campouts.  And the patrols in my troop had weekly patrol meetings at the patrol leader's house. We practiced scout skills. None of that now happens in my sons' troop. Troop meetings only, no, that is, NO patrol meetings. Hmmm.

And having attended nearly every troop meeting and entire campout weekends with my several kids, over 20+ years, in my day, the patrol leaders and assistant patrol leaders actually knew their skills and were competent to make the decision that a scout had mastered (or at least learned the skill to an acceptable degree) a skill and the patrol leader/assistant patrol leader were knowledgeable enough in that skill themselves to be trusted to sign off on a skill for a younger scout.

And in my day, long before the mammoths had vanished, we had folding, pocket-sized cards for each rank.  Printed on heavy white card stock. A card for each rank, with all that rank's requirements, with a little line where an authorized person could initial that we had completed that requirement.  These little white cards were similar in size to the current merit badge "blue card." Some folded in half, some in three parts for the more senior ranks, having more requirements.

I never went anywhere without my white card for the next rank I was working on. The beauty of it was that if I came a across a situation where I could demonstrate a needed skill, I had the card-the record- where I could get someone's attention, demonstrate that skill, get signed off, immediately and move on.  (There are the concepts, "praise in public-criticize in private," and "reward immediately upon performance.")

The advancement white cards did that.

And for years, when my sons joined their troop, I laboriously re-created those white cards for them and for all the scouts in the troop.  Printed them, cut them to size, creased the fold lines, and wondered "Just why aren't these now available?" (Handbooks, where advancement is now recorded-more profitable???)  Scouts, in my observational experience, just don't bother to take their handbooks anywhere-even to troop meetings. And the handbooks just seem to fall apart in short order. 

[Eagle_Chris 21]

@George - in the BSA Guidebook to advancement (Section 4.2.1.2) it states that :

4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested
The unit leader authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include the patrol leader, the senior patrol leader, the unit leader, an assistant unit leader, or another Scout. Merit badge counselors teach and test Scouts on requirements for merit badges.

As a SM, I authorized the Patrol Leaders, Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Patrol Leader to sign-off on Scout through 1st Class Requirements.  Star through Eagle were signed off by the SM or ASM(s).  The biggest transition from the Cub Scout program to the BSA program are the parent sign-offs on requirements.

I found this method worked best for our Troop, and helped to support the Patrol Method.

On the Scout Spirit requirement, I coupled this with the Scoutmaster's Conference, but with the other responses above, it may work for your Troop including this with the PLC.  Here's the section from the BSA Guidebook on Scout Spirit:

4.2.3.2 Demonstrate Scout Spirit

The ideals of the Boy Scouts of America are spelled out in the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. Members incorporating these ideals into their daily lives at home, at school, in religious life, and in their neighborhoods, for example, are said to have In evaluating whether this requirement has been fulfilled, it may be best to begin by asking the Scout to explain what Scout spirit, living the Scout Oath and Scout Law to God means to them. Young people know when they are being kind or helpful, or a good friend to others. They know when they are cheerful, or trustworthy.  All of us, young and old, know how we act when no one else is around.

[curious_scouter 134]

4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested
The unit leader authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include the patrol leader, the senior patrol leader, the unit leader, an assistant unit leader, or another Scout

Pretty clear.  If you, as unit leader, wish to authorize the PLC to test and pass the Scout on that requirement - I can see no reason you can't.  You have a responsibility to ensure those you authorize to do the testing and passing are qualified to do so and that the unit clearly understands who can do what.   If you have full faith in your PLC to be honest and just (youth can be petty) then it sounds like a good experiment at the least.

It's not without hazard, but I think you can say that about anything really

[KublaiKen 192]

We have a First Class or above (hence often the PL or Instructor) sign off the left-hand column, and then an ASM the right-hand column. The Scouts don't sign off SMC or BOR, but the Scout seeking to advance does have to answer all the other things like Scout Spirit to the signing Scout's satisfaction.

[curious_scouter 134]

After discussing with me I allow Star and higher to sign off on First Class and lower.

I also allow Troop Guides after training.

I find that youth-youth for those ranks has benefit.  We have a largeish troop, so it avoid bottlenecks getting progress recorded.  It also provide repeat chances for the older Scout to revisit material and concepts and to show leadership by testing.  I keep an eye on signatures, etc. and if I see a particularly "prolific" scout signoff, I make a point to check in with them more often to maintain my comfort level they are adequately testing.  Have been doing this a while, no problems at all. 

[mrjohns2 582]

19 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

 

We have a First Class or above (hence often the PL or Instructor) sign off the left-hand column, and then an ASM the right-hand column. The Scouts don't sign off SMC or BOR, but the Scout seeking to advance does have to answer all the other things like Scout Spirit to the signing Scout's satisfaction.

 

I hope you are not having the scout do everything twice? That would not be good. 

[KublaiKen 192]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

I hope you are not having the scout do everything twice? That would not be good. 

It's how our PLC wants to do it.

[DuctTape 1231]

21 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

We have a First Class or above (hence often the PL or Instructor) sign off the left-hand column, and then an ASM the right-hand column. The Scouts don't sign off SMC or BOR, but the Scout seeking to advance does have to answer all the other things like Scout Spirit to the signing Scout's satisfaction.

This is a neat idea. The left hand column initials by the PL as an indicator that the scout is ready to be be tested by the ASM (the person authorized to do sign-offs). I can see the scout having an increased motivation to ask to be tested and have confidence in their success. This also keeps the older scouts sharp, and provides leadership and peer mentorship.

Even if the PLC decides (with authorization by the SM) to have SPL or PL do official testing and sign-offs, I really like the idea of another older scout  put their initials on the left side as an indicator of "readiness to be tested". For example, the PL might become authorized to sign-off on requirements and the APL helps the scouts be ready and uses their initials on the left to communicate said readiness.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

40 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

This is a neat idea. The left hand column initials by the PL as an indicator that the scout is ready to be be tested by the ASM (the person authorized to do sign-offs). I can see the scout having an increased motivation to ask to be tested and have confidence in their success. This also keeps the older scouts sharp, and provides leadership and peer mentorship.

Even if the PLC decides (with authorization by the SM) to have SPL or PL do official testing and sign-offs, I really like the idea of another older scout  put their initials on the left side as an indicator of "readiness to be tested". For example, the PL might become authorized to sign-off on requirements and the APL helps the scouts be ready and uses their initials on the left to communicate said readiness.

Instructors should not also serve the role of evaluators.  I agree with @DuctTape's train of thought.

It's not about "doing it twice."  In fact, a Scout should "do" as many times as necessary to acquire the skill, THEN be tested.  He only has to pass the test once.

Edited February 15 by InquisitiveScouter

[SiouxRanger 491]

 

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I hope you are not having the scout do everything twice? That would not be good. 

Nothing wrong with "Practice to Master," THEN test.  The test should not be a practice session. 

Little is simple or obvious if one truly understands the skill-has mastered it. "Craftsmanship." Journeyman, not apprentice.

"If I don't practice one day, I know it; two days, the critics know it; three days, the public knows it."

--Jascha Heifetz

(I thought Vladimir Horowitz said that. A Google search ALSO attributed it to Louis Armstrong-enough searching…it is the thought that counts.)

As a BSA certified angling instructor, I STILL practice my fishing knots. They are inherently confusing and I don't use them enough to stay fresh.

How many bowline style knots are there? (I can think of 6 offhand, not counting mirror images of them-that would push it to 12.)

[RememberSchiff 3683]

Related, leadership position self-assessment. Reflection can be powerful.

"This self-evaluation is a tool to help you reflect on your effectiveness as a Troop Leader and to help your Senior Leadership team and Scoutmaster improve supporting these positions. Please complete this form and return it to the Scoutmaster. The completion of this evaluation is MANDATORY in order to receive credit for having served in this position."

Troop Position of Responsibility Self-Evaluation

https://bsatroop713.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Troop-Leader-Self-Evaluation.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

15 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Related, leadership position self-assessment. Reflection can be powerful.

"This self-evaluation is a tool to help you reflect on your effectiveness as a Troop Leader and to help your Senior Leadership team and Scoutmaster improve supporting these positions. Please complete this form and return it to the Scoutmaster. The completion of this evaluation is MANDATORY in order to receive credit for having served in this position."

Troop Position of Responsibility Self-Evaluation

https://bsatroop713.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Troop-Leader-Self-Evaluation.pdf

Excellent.  And as long as the Troop is consistent in applying this for all Positions of Responsibility, then I am all for it!

A good leader communicates, confirms understanding of, and enforces expectations 😜 

[mrjohns2 582]

On 2/14/2024 at 5:26 PM, KublaiKen said:

It's how our PLC wants to do it.

That might be how they want it, but that isn’t ok. 

[DuctTape 1231]

9 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

That might be how they want it, but that isn’t ok. 

What is not ok? It aapears the GTA is not being violated. The scout is not being re-tested on requirements. The PLC is just initialing in the handbook that they provided the instruction and the scout is ready to be tested by the ASM/SM in accordance with the GTA.