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Hawkwin

National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

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2 hours ago, LegacyLost said:

It is better for the BSA to collapse than to persist as a vehicle of societal corruption.

I can't argue with that.

The thing about vehicles is that they can be used for either good or bad. 

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3 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

If you'd bothered to read any of his other posts, you'd see the real reason for his stance. But keep poking at it, it's a nice quality to see in people here.

 

4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

He is referencing BSA's embrace of homosexuality and transgenderism - not the inclusion of girls.

We'll I'm glad that I mis-read that then.

Had this funny thing happen a few years back.  My in-laws are some of the most devout, religious people I've ever met.  Go to church every Sunday, sing in the choir, serve on the church board, have the minister over for Christmas dinner.  Mother in law is a part time employee of the church office.  Father in law is literally a preacher's son who almost became a minister himself.  They have a daughter - who they love and adore.  My sister-in-law in fact.  Turns out that she's gay.  Now I suppose you could say that my in-laws are morally bankrupt and ought to disown her - but I can't quite make that leap.  

About a year ago had another funny thing happen.  A family I know well has a 15 year old son.   I've know the kid his whole life. Big, tall kid - a scout too.  Good role model, active, helped at church, at scouts.  Turns on that he's transgender.  Now, he was born a boy, he still dresses as a boy, still acts as a boy, but he struggles daily with his gender identity.  Dad pushed back too.  Told his son - you're not really, it's just a phase.  Kid had the presence to stand up to his dad and fight for his acceptance.  Got his dad to understand that it wasn't a fad, wasn't a choice.  Did I mention - great kid?

In both cases, I'm reminded that these are kids and human beings.  They have hopes and dreams.  They have hurt feelings as much as any other kids.   I just cannot fathom so hating these kids that someone would root for the end of the BSA because they dared to let them be kids like everyone else.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

This was a fascinating, thoughtful,  and excellent interview.  Really gave some great answers on the practical side and the hopeful side of the changes coming to our org.

Practical, yes. But I didn’t get the hopeful side. Their council will likely be losing around 80 percent of their Scouts/units. Friends of Scouting donations are plummeting. Layoffs are inevitable. Giving up camp properties that they can no longer afford to maintain. Going from a top performing council to one struggling for survival. Where is the hopeful side?

Edited by gblotter
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27 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

We'll I'm glad that I mis-read that then.

Had this funny thing happen a few years back.  My in-laws are some of the most devout, religious people I've ever met.  Go to church every Sunday, sing in the choir, serve on the church board, have the minister over for Christmas dinner.  Mother in law is a part time employee of the church office.  Father in law is literally a preacher's son who almost became a minister himself.  They have a daughter - who they love and adore.  My sister-in-law in fact.  Turns out that she's gay.  Now I suppose you could say that my in-laws are morally bankrupt and ought to disown her - but I can't quite make that leap.  

About a year ago had another funny thing happen.  A family I know well has a 15 year old son.   I've know the kid his whole life. Big, tall kid - a scout too.  Good role model, active, helped at church, at scouts.  Turns on that he's transgender.  Now, he was born a boy, he still dresses as a boy, still acts as a boy, but he struggles daily with his gender identity.  Dad pushed back too.  Told his son - you're not really, it's just a phase.  Kid had the presence to stand up to his dad and fight for his acceptance.  Got his dad to understand that it wasn't a fad, wasn't a choice.  Did I mention - great kid?

In both cases, I'm reminded that these are kids and human beings.  They have hopes and dreams.  They have hurt feelings as much as any other kids.   I just cannot fathom so hating these kids that someone would root for the end of the BSA because they dared to let them be kids like everyone else.

 

 

It's actually out of a love for kids.

And this is why: The Bible teaches that having unnatural sexual affections is effectively no different than any othet sinful tendency that mankind can be born with.

The only thing that makes homosexuality and the like distinct is that the Bible teaches that they appear into a population in increasing proportion as the particular result of the "wrath of God revealed" upon a people who knowingly reject God. (Quick read of Romans 1 proves this.)

What made America particularly distinct before now? Its Christian heritage. What has America willfully abandoned of late, relatively speaking? Exactly.

You see, the hateful Westboro Baptist Church have it all wrong. God won't judge America for the immortalities of homosexuals and so forth. America has already been tried, weighed, found wanting, and judged for "although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools" "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie"

 

But back to the point about the kids. To tell kids to swear an oath to honor God and be morally straight and yet have a homosexual scoutmaster give the oath unapologetically to even one or more unapologetic homosexual boys is an act of the most supreme hypocrisy and arrogance before God. Do you really think that it's loving to teach children that?

That is what passes for love? According to the word of God, great woe is unto those who call good evil and evil good. And it speaks of a lost generation that they cannot see it for just how grevious and dangerous such behavior is.

No, I love the children, and that is why I will support Trail Life USA, who, I might add, does rightly accept kids with homosexual feelings (just as one would accept a child with anger issues or something similar) they just don't allow that to be endorsed or acted upon, instead they treat the child with love as one would hope and expect.

 

The BSA (corporate) cannot understand what they have unleashed because they clearly don't understand God. To expect faithful men and women to just "get over" the BSA's past endorsement of extreme sexual immorality while at the same time leaving "honor God" and "morally straight" in the pledge is the height of arrogance and folly.

All should tremble who have taken God's name and dragged it through the mud via the past association of the BSA with the Triune God, according to the decisions of 2013, 2015, and 2017.

"God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

"Transgression speaks to the ungodly within his heart; There is no fear of God before his eyes."

"Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil."

"But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations"

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6 hours ago, LegacyLost said:

But back to the point about the kids. To tell kids to swear an oath to honor God and be morally straight and yet have a homosexual scoutmaster give the oath unapologetically to even one or more unapologetic homosexual boys is an act of the most supreme hypocrisy and arrogance before God. Do you really think that it's loving to teach children that?

 

Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe that we are as God made us, sexual orientation and all. I don't believe that being gay is a choice.

 

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8 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Yes. Yes I do. Because I believe that we are as God made us, sexual orientation and all. I don't believe that being gay is a choice.

 

And you have obtained this knowledge of God how? I have the Bible, the written word of God. A self authenticating work, containing prophecy after fulfilled prophecy across thousands of years. The book upon which the world itself turns even to this day. A book that explains things as they have been, are now, and shall be, a book giving sight to the blind, hearing to deaf, clothing to the naked, and riches to the poor. Your turn.

A reading of only 1 chapter of the Bible proves my case: Romans 1.

The BSA leadership knew that something like 70% of their members were those hosted by a church and that the BSA requires a belief in God and yet they still rammed these things down the throats of their members. Did the BSA really think that this would end well?

"Hey look, the BSA just endorsed homosexuality, I now see just how silly and ignorant and wrong the holy word of God is, I'm sure the BSA's vote is now the REAL authority on this." Laughable.

From Romans 1:

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."

"Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

You can go ahead and hate this God, but you cannot pretend that He approves of what the BSA has done over the last few years. And now we see consequences.

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8 hours ago, ParkMan said:

In both cases, I'm reminded that these are kids and human beings.  

Who said they aren't?

This "human being" argument has become very popular lately. Liberals have been using it on a wide variety of issues. I think it is one of the most idiotic arguments I have ever heard.

 

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9 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I just cannot fathom so hating these kids that...

This is another argument that has become very popular among the liberals. Anyone who disagrees with them are haters. 

 

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20 minutes ago, LegacyLost said:

And you have obtained this knowledge of God how? I have the Bible, the written word of God. A self authenticating work, containing prophecy after fulfilled prophecy across thousands of years. The book upon which the world itself turns even to this day. A book that explains things as they have been, are now, and shall be, a book giving sight to the blind, hearing to deaf, clothing to the naked, and riches to the poor. Your turn.

A reading of only 1 chapter of the Bible proves my case: Romans 1.

The BSA leadership knew that something like 70% of their members were those hosted by a church and that the BSA requires a belief in God and yet they still rammed these things down the throats of their members. Did the BSA really think that this would end well?

"Hey look, the BSA just endorsed homosexuality, I now see just how silly and ignorant and wrong the holy word of God is, I'm sure the BSA's vote is now the REAL authority on this." Laughable.

From Romans 1:

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."

"Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

You can go ahead and hate this God, but you cannot pretend that He approves of what the BSA has done over the last few years. And now we see consequences.

But that is only your belief based on your interpretation of your religious text for your god. Many many others have different religious beliefs based on their own. You believe you are right, else you would believe differently; but it is still a belief as is mine which differs greatly from yours. The BSA and the USA allow us both to keep our own beliefs. 

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36 minutes ago, David CO said:

Who said they aren't?

This "human being" argument has become very popular lately. Liberals have been using it on a wide variety of issues. I think it is one of the most idiotic arguments I have ever heard.

 

 

30 minutes ago, David CO said:

This is another argument that has become very popular among the liberals. Anyone who disagrees with them are haters. 

 

it's not that.

I've found the tone of the comments of late on the forum to be getting more and more negative towards the kids that are admitted through these changes.  Comments like the one calling for the demise of the BSA.  The one about how a Scoutmaster wouldn't let his scouts interact with the girls.

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15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I've found the tone of the comments of late on the forum to be getting more and more negative towards the kids that are admitted through these changes. 

I'm not hearing that. The comments you refer to have mostly been about BSA, not the kids.

 

Edited by David CO

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1 hour ago, LegacyLost said:

You can go ahead and hate this God, but you cannot pretend that He approves of what the BSA has done over the last few years. And now we see consequences.

 

You're the 2nd person this week to tell me that I hate something that I love. First I was told I hate the BSA. Now I'm told that I hate God. It's interesting that people on an Internet forum who know so little about me seem to think they know me so well. 

Last night I was working with my Scouts on a service project at a local park, I guess hating the BSA the whole time. Friday night I'll be at our Pack meeting, apparently hating the BSA then, too. Sunday morning I'll be at church, I suppose hating God and my faith. Geez, I sure do a lot of hating. 😄

So then should I say that I'm at work right now, "loving" my job? 😉

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9 hours ago, gblotter said:

Practical, yes. But I didn’t get the hopeful side. Their council will likely be losing around 80 percent of their Scouts/units. Friends of Scouting donations are plummeting. Layoffs are inevitable. Giving up camp properties that they can no longer afford to maintain. Going from a top performing council to one struggling for survival. Where is the hopeful side?

The hopeful was that he thought that long time scouters who were also members of the LDS would remain members and supporters of scouting, hopeful because he believed many LDS families would continue to have their sons (and daughters) in scouting because they loved and believed in scouting not just because it was mandated by their church, and also hopeful in that he believed that the council was positioned to survive financially because of some sound investment strategies they had made.

At the same time, he's certainly realistic about his council being much smaller.

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Umm guys?      Can we take a deep breath here?     

What we have here is failure to understand that  we have two different paradigms.    LegacyLost is clearly going on the belief that the Bible is the Word of God, and as such it is to be studied and followed.    Granting him his premise all his arguments are logical and coherent.    How can one say " I love God but I refuse to do what He says" ?     I can only assume that Firestone believes that  Paul of Tarsus, who penned half of the new testament, is  not to be taken seriously here and has somehow come to terms with that.   Very well I am certainly not the keeper of his conscience.   Or anyone's but my own.   

Can we all show a little understanding ?         

I Cor.13  comes to mind

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13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

A good (and sad) interview explaining some of the impact to an Idaho council.  😥

 

 

He's being a little bit disingenuous when he says withholding FOS donations doesn't send a message to National Council. According to his own numbers, Grand Teton Council has up to seven seats at National.

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