What to Do ?

[Eagle94-A1]

So, as I've posted in another thread, we have an issue with a Scout completing a BOR for two ranks that were signed off by mom. Mom's initials were not discovered until after both the SMC and BOR were done, when the ASM who was just assigned to do the advancement record  keeping was updating the records.  What are some ideas to make sure this Scout actually does what mom signed off for so he can actually earn the rank?

 

Some  additional info.

 

1)  Troop is in the process of preventing this in the future. Specifically YOUTH will be signing off on the S-T-2-1 ranks, records reviewed and verified before the BOR, following the current GtA guidelines instead of older ones, etc

 

2) This Scout will be with us for about another month, then is moving to a new town, and a new troop. So we have about a month to get him up to speed.

 

3) Attendance at meetings and camp outs is very sporadic due to a custody situation. He will be missing the camp out this weekend and the one in May.  Plus I don't know what meetings he will be at this month, if any (yes he has gone 4 weeks without anyone knowing what's up, and that was when his TG called to check up on him)

 

So What are your ideas?

 

One idea is when the rest of the troop is electing the SPL and PLs, he goes off with 2 adults and works on the requirements mom signed off on.

 

Another idea is that when they do break out sessions, he goes with the the T-2-1 Scouts and works on the requirements mom signed off on.

 

Both ideas have pros and cons.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Thanks for spinning this off of the original discussion.

So, it seems that after a cumulative SMC and BoR, you are uncertain that the boy is indeed a first class scout?

 

I'm not about to throw stones, because we all know that, lacking the authority to repeal a rank at the first failure to demonstrate a First Class skill, we have a nation of shirts a large percentage of which aren't living up to their patch on the left pocket. Oddly, your adults suddenly care that the competencies match the patch.

 

As far as I'm concerned ... no more adult intervention. Politely ask your lead boys to help fix your screw-ups inasmuch as they can.

 

First, I would ask the PL/SPL if they've seen the boy demonstrate any of the skills in question. For example, mom may have signed off on the swimming requirements because the boy showed her his buddy tag at camp. Well, if that's the case, maybe the PL remembers him taking that test. Same for all of the other requirements. It was their responsibility at the time to work with the boy from his book (even if the adults stole it from them), it's their responsibility now to sort it out. Given that you're being swamped with first years anyway, this would not be a fruitless exercise.

 

It shouldn't take too much to determine if the boy "is all that". If so, water over the dam. The wrong signatures were in the book. But if not hers, others would have been there.

 

Second, if those signatures were under false pretenses, I would get in touch with the troop he's transferring to.and tell the SM there about the entire debacle. Refer him to this forum if he wants advise beyond his ASMs/MCs to sort things out.

 

And one more ... treat the boy like the patch he claims to be. Have him demonstrate his skills to some tenderfoot.

Edited April 28, 2016 by qwazse

[Krampus]

I would say this is an adult problem in need of a boy solution.

 

My guys would do this:

• The SPL would assign on of our instructors to meet with the Scout during troop meetings to review the skills signed off on by mom.
• If he can demonstrate the skill (using EDGE) then the Instructor checks and moves on.
• If he cannot demonstrate the skill, the Instructor notes this requirement, and then teaches him the skill which will then be demonstrated back to the Instructor using EDGE.
• The Instructor would give the SPL and SM his "report" on what he thinks the Scout knows and doesn't know. Areas of weakness would be identified for the Scout to further practice.
• The Scout's official record would note that the mom signed off on certain requirements so that the situation is documented, as well as what the troop did to rectify the issue.

As you've already noted, the best way to stop this is to review books regularly so that parents can't slip one by the Instructors.

[Stosh]

I'm with @@Krampus on this one.  This is an adult mistake and should not be held against the scout. 

 

Seriously, with one month to fix a problem as big as this and even to dump into the laps of the boys is kinda dumb in my book.

 

The boy is moving on to another troop.  I would go to the SM and let him know of the situation as to how the adults dropped the ball on this process and screwed up and please take that into consideration when they deal with him in the future troop. 

 

We have had discussions about adult messes with advancement especially at the Eagle level where it is majorly critical, but we're talking FC here.  This is not a deal breaker.  The new SM knows the boy is weak on his skills, let the PL of the patrol he's going to be in know this and have the PL take care of it as is his responsibility as PL to do.  Two people in the new troop know about this  the SM and the PL.  No one else needs to know and enough people have the heads up to fix things over the course of 12 months without making a big deal about it.  Maybe the PL will have the boy do his Star rank POR as an Instructor and kill two birds with one stone.  I do think there is a lesson for the adults in this whole process, heed it.

[DadScouts]

Is the mom registered with the Troop? If yes..  There are adult mistakes and then there is adult misconduct.  Call me a hardball, even with just a month remaining, but I would at least have a discussion with the Troop Committee about removing the mom as a registered leader immediately.  

Why bother?  Coaches and players get ejected from games for misconduct before games start, early in games, late in games, and even after games have ended. Don't give her a pass and let this person be dumped onto another Troop without warning.  (The Catholic Church did that with abusive priests and that didn't go over so well.)  Inform the new Troop, regardless if she is registered or not.

I echo what others have said regarding the Scout in question and love the idea of Scouts solving an adult problem.

[Krampus]

Maybe he will get accepted in to a paper Eagle mill where his skills will fit right in? 

[Eagle94-A1]

Some additional info.

 

1) No, mom is not a registered leader. Mom is a drop off and pick up, and even then sometime it's grandma that is doing the dropping off and picking up. I don't think I even saw her at the Court of Honor.

 

2) Because of the reorganization in the troop, I didn't want to take away any of the new youth leaders from their new patrols to deal with this problem that the adults caused

 

3) One of the ideas I wrote in the original post came from his TG. Yep, son wanted to "revoke his rank," especially since he couldn't remember who signed off on the requirements until the 3rd time he was asked, and the SM added "...was it your mother?" That's when he admitted mom signed off. When I told my son we could not do that, it was then "treat him like a Tenderfoot and make him do everything all over."

 

4) We have no idea where the Scout is moving too, let alone what troop he's going too.  All we know is the mom is remarrying and they are moving to the outer banks as soon as school is over. Trust me we do not want to dump the problem on anyone. Heck we are embarrassed it happened.

[Eagle94-A1]

Forgot to add, I really think this debacle is another sign that the SM needs to step back and let others do more of the work. I know we have an ASM in charge of advancement now, and I'm working on the paperwork side of things. His health concerns all of us. He has his good days, and his bad ones. But I think Scouting is taking more out of him.  Problem is he's a Scouting Addict. When he was in the hospital last year, he was upset he was missing a meeting.

 

Wife tells me that will be me in 30+ years.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

Yeh have one month, da PLC has its meeting plans, yeh don't even know if the lad will show up?

 

Sometimes yeh just have to live with your mistakes, eh?

 

Have a conference with the young man, and explain what happened, how it wasn't fair to da other scouts or to him, how you messed up.  Then talk to him a bit about honor, eh?  How sometimes some folks wear military honors on their uniform that they haven't really earned, or pretend to be former Navy SEALS when they never did BUDS.   Point him to "Stolen Valor" on the internet.

 

Then leave it up to the lad whether he chooses to wear the ranks he didn't earn in his new troop, or whether he tells his new SM "Hey, I'm listed as First Class but I really only earned Tenderfoot.  Can yeh help me catch up and really do all the requirements for my paper rank?"

 

Good lesson and life choice for the boy, eh?  Also good measure of whether your program is teachin' the lessons that really matter.  In the end, the boys in his new troop will know whether he has First Class skills and attitudes after his first campout.  Badges are only meaningful if they represent what a scout is able to do.

 

Beavah

Edited April 28, 2016 by Beavah

[Krampus]

Forgot to add, I really think this debacle is another sign that the SM needs to step back and let others do more of the work. I know we have an ASM in charge of advancement now, and I'm working on the paperwork side of things. His health concerns all of us. He has his good days, and his bad ones. But I think Scouting is taking more out of him.  Problem is he's a Scouting Addict. When he was in the hospital last year, he was upset he was missing a meeting.

 

Wife tells me that will be me in 30+ years.

 

How many ASMs do you have? Are they able to be trusted to get the work done? 

 

Is the SM's reluctance to let go because he may not trust the guys underneath him? 

 

I know guys who rock what I give them. Others don't. Yes, I don't think everyone is going to do things like I would do them but that's both good and bad.

[CalicoPenn]

He's leaving the Troop in a month - Have a final SMC about the Scout Oath and Law IF you were clear from the get go that parents don't sign off on ranks - if that was not made clear to the Scout and the Mom, lesson learned. 

 

Either way, treat it as a lesson learned and just move on - don't waste any more brain power of youth power on this.

[SSScout]

Sounds a lot like mom is stuck in Cub Scout mode.  Definitely talk to Scout .  Good SMMinute topic:  Honor.   "Character is what one does when he thinks no one is looking"..   Many Star Trek episodes hinge on that value.  We even had a TV quiz show entitled "Who Do You Trust?"  (whom?)  

 

This brings up another topic.  It occurs to me, in line of our tendency here to ask "where is it written?" ...   Who signs off on a requirement?  Why not mom?   Who really defines that role?   In Cub Scouts, I seem to remember "reading" that the parent should "pass" the Cub.  But in Boy Scouts/Ventures/Explorers.....   Is the Scoutmaster ultimately responsible?  Does he/she delegate to the ASMs?  The PLs?   Any First Class or higher?  Could the Unit Commissioner quiz/test a Scout on the lashings and sign off on them?  Is it particular to the Unit's culture?  In a new unit, where everyone is a Tenderfoot,  could you delegate to one of the newby PLs?  

 

Who can/should decide?

[King Ding Dong]

Once you hit Webelos it was the DL who signed off, no more Mom. (At least under the old program).

 

IMO it is the SM's show and he makes those rules. If you don't like it, get him replaced or move on.

 

In my new troop the rule is 2 ranks above to sign off. Now my "Scout that holds the rank of Star" is nowhere near the level of these other boys so I am in complete agreement with the SM that he needs to pass a retest of T and 2nd before he can touch a book. Not his fault he was in a once and done troop and most importantly he agrees he has some catching up to do.

[Eagle94-A1]

How many ASMs do you have? Are they able to be trusted to get the work done? 

 

Is the SM's reluctance to let go because he may not trust the guys underneath him? 

 

I know guys who rock what I give them. Others don't. Yes, I don't think everyone is going to do things like I would do them but that's both good and bad.

 

Prior to me joining, he had 1 ASM who doubled as CM, and whose job severely restricted when the troop could camp. and a 2nd ASM who was also the IH, so he was limited as to when he could camp. When i joined the troop he got another dad in as ASM, but can only come every other week due to the custody situation, and myself as a MC. Over the past year, we got me switched over to ASM, plus 3 more ASMs and an MC.

 

1 ASM never had Boy Scout experience, but a lot of outdoor KSAs. He's developing nicely.  One ASM just crossed over from Webelos in Dec., and has no prior Boy Scout experience. He freaked out when I said the Scouts should sign off on advancement. And the one ASMwho has a lot of Boy Scout expereince, and was in the troop as a youth, has been some of the problems. The MC needs more seasoning. Knows the theories and can see where I'm coming from, but doesn't think the scouts are quite ready for it YET, except for a few of the older ones.

 

As for trusting the ASMs enough to step down, that may be part of it. But I also know part of it is the CO. I had a chat with the COR/CC, and he told me point blank that they want someone who is a member of the church as SM because they do view it as an outreach ministry. Since only 1 ASM is a member, it does limit the selection, and his job is crazy. He's already been called away from meetings and camp outs.

 

 

Sounds a lot like mom is stuck in Cub Scout mode.  Definitely talk to Scout .  Good SMMinute topic:  Honor.   "Character is what one does when he thinks no one is looking"..   Many Star Trek episodes hinge on that value.  We even had a TV quiz show entitled "Who Do You Trust?"  (whom?)  

 

This brings up another topic.  It occurs to me, in line of our tendency here to ask "where is it written?" ...   Who signs off on a requirement?  Why not mom?   Who really defines that role?   In Cub Scouts, I seem to remember "reading" that the parent should "pass" the Cub.  But in Boy Scouts/Ventures/Explorers.....   Is the Scoutmaster ultimately responsible?  Does he/she delegate to the ASMs?  The PLs?   Any First Class or higher?  Could the Unit Commissioner quiz/test a Scout on the lashings and sign off on them?  Is it particular to the Unit's culture?  In a new unit, where everyone is a Tenderfoot,  could you delegate to one of the newby PLs?  

 

Who can/should decide?

 

According ot the GtA, the SM is responsible for who can and cannot sign off on advancement. So every troop does things differently. My troop and another have the SM and other adults only sign off. Some troops in the area allows the boy to sign on one side of the book saying they have seen the scout doe the skill, but the adults sign off on official side of the book.  Ansd some unuits have the youth sign off. Game plan is by June We will have the PLC members and a few others up to speed so they cna sign off.

 

I'm partial to letting youth sign off, but I also remember when youth coudl sit on BORs.

 

KDD,

 

give you some background. SM is a long time Scouter, 50+ years, who was SM when the troop died. He singlehandedly resurrected the troop, and for 4 year was THE force behind the troop, being a one man show. Part of that was folks who helped out also were involved inthe cub scout pack.  for the first 4 years, they averaged 8-12 Scouts, and then doubled when my son joined, and added another patrol a year after that. We can expect anywhere from 12-23 new Scouts from 2 different packs come Decemebr.  We have has some issues for the past year with our NSP, and we are workignon getting those corrected. Troop leaders are also concerned with the SM health as he does have medical conditions requiring oxygen, and he was hospitalized twice in 2015.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Eagle94-A1