zuzy 23 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 HI there. Son completed eagle project this week. Does he need to fill out the workbook in full before having the beneficiary sign and SM as well? Also SM made a snarky remark the day before project by stating he never received any updated information about the project and who from the troop has? What? Son has mentioned many times at meetings about the project, even demonstarted, and SM even knew when project was going to be when he approved the project. Scratching head? Son "did" send out emails for followup right before the project and forgot to include SM. sigh. SM says this is poor leadership because of the poor communication. Is son in real danger here? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 HI there. Son completed eagle project this week. Does he need to fill out the workbook in full before having the beneficiary sign and SM as well? Might as well, it has to be done sooner or later and a completed document with all the i's dotted and t's crossed is easier to "sign" than a partially completed document. Also SM made a snarky remark the day before project by stating he never received any updated information about the project and who from the troop has? What? Son has mentioned many times at meetings about the project, even demonstarted, and SM even knew when project was going to be when he approved the project. Scratching head? Son "did" send out emails for followup right before the project and forgot to include SM. sigh. SM notification is a courtesy issue that your son stumbled on. Not a deal beaker, but it did show how sensitive some can be in regards to being slighted along the way. Surely the SM knew about it because all the boys seemed to be in on the loop and proper leadership was demonstrated with the communication provided. SM says this is poor leadership because of the poor communication. Is son in real danger here? If the SM is going looking for some kind of opportunity to posture his authority, then there's nothing the boy can do about it. Obviously the SM knows nothing about what real leadership is all about. Poor communication is a result of poor management not leadership.* Thanks * Any time there's an issue like this I always use the leadership analogy of Stonewall Jackson's skills in the Civil War during the Shenandoah Valley Campaign. It was a very successful operation that caused a lot of grief for the Federal command. He ran circles around the union forces. The only complaint was that the subordinate officers of Jackson command knew nothing about what was going on in Jackson's mind. He communicated little to his officers and they simply followed along doing what Jackson told them to do at the last minute. Regardless of the major lack of communication (management of the army) the boys followed Jackson for another reason (leadership of the army), they trusted in Jackson to get them to where they needed to be and he always did even if the others didn't know where that was. Link to post Share on other sites
dfolson 70 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) More background would be helpful. How many people came to help? Does he have a sign in sheet? Was the beneficiary happy with the results? Now that I see Stosh's post. He said it better... Edited February 16, 2016 by dfolson Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 If the SM is going looking for some kind of opportunity to posture his authority, then there's nothing the boy can do about it. There actually is something the Scout can do about it. If a SM (or CC) refuses to sign the completed workbook (or Eagle Scout Application), a Scout can request a Board of Review from the council "under disputed circumstances." See section 8.0.3.2 of the Guide to Advancement, which is here: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf But hopefully it does not come to that. Hopefully your son goes to the SM with his completed workbook, and I would bring along all the emails and other evidence showing how he communicated about the project, and apologize for forgetting to include the SM on one email, and hopefully the SM will sign the workbook and the Scout does not have to go through all the legal jargon in the Guide to Advancement. Link to post Share on other sites
zuzy 23 Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 Thanks guys, knew I could count on you to give me relief. Stosh, if you remember back to Octoberish and the SM that "lost" the blue cards and told son to deal with it, well, one in the same. I will so relieved when son get his eagle.............. He did a great job, had some fluffs with his leadership, but mostly after one of the ASM's badgered him with three questions at the work site within 30 seconds, requesting an immediate answer. sighhhhh Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) SMs say the darndest things ... ... Son "did" send out emails for followup right before the project and forgot to include SM. sigh. SM says this is poor leadership because of the poor communication. Is son in real danger here? ... Naw. zuzyson is not in real danger ... unless the incomplete dissemination of his last-minute memo somehow resulted in an open candy bar at the bottom of his sleeping bag in the middle of bear country! His rank advancement is not in jeopardy either. It's just a lesson learned along the way that he can bring up in his board of review. He could even write it in his workbook evaluation: Last-minute E-mails weren't checked for completeness of recipient list, leaving some participants to feel left out of redundant communications. Call it poor leadership or poor management ... he still showed leadership. He should fill out all of the paperwork now while it's fresh in his memory. Oh, and congratulations to zuzyson for a job well done ... and make sure he checks all of his gear for smell-ables before his next back-country hike. Edited February 16, 2016 by qwazse 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 HI there. Son completed eagle project this week. Does he need to fill out the workbook in full before having the beneficiary sign and SM as well? The beneficiary, SM and committee chair sign off on the Eagle Project Proposal BEFORE the project is completed. They ALSO sign off AFTER the project is completed. Also SM made a snarky remark the day before project by stating he never received any updated information about the project and who from the troop has? What? Son has mentioned many times at meetings about the project, even demonstarted, and SM even knew when project was going to be when he approved the project. Scratching head? Son "did" send out emails for followup right before the project and forgot to include SM. sigh.There's plenty of blame here. If the beneficiary has signed, the SM has signed and the troop chair has signed, then the horse is out of the barn. That's the green light to proceed. My problem is that the process is wrong. The scout gets his proposal "approved" and then moves forward without having to have his PLAN approved. IMHO all parties should see the detail of what you will do. SM says this is poor leadership because of the poor communication. Is son in real danger here?He's right...but he's included in that evaluation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 HI there. Son completed eagle project this week. Does he need to fill out the workbook in full before having the beneficiary sign and SM as well? Also SM made a snarky remark the day before project by stating he never received any updated information about the project and who from the troop has? What? Son has mentioned many times at meetings about the project, even demonstarted, and SM even knew when project was going to be when he approved the project. Scratching head? Son "did" send out emails for followup right before the project and forgot to include SM. sigh. SM says this is poor leadership because of the poor communication. Is son in real danger here? Thanks Well, in my troop, it's after the workbook is filled in full. We get the sponsor to sign first, and then the SM and CC. I hope that the SM signed off on the project before it began, and you're talking about the final SM signature. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Well, in my troop, it's after the workbook is filled in full. We get the sponsor to sign first, and then the SM and CC. I hope that the SM signed off on the project before it began, and you're talking about the final SM signature. Interesting. Ever get any push back from the Scout or district about doing this? The scout is only required to have the proposal signed off before beginning work. They are not required to complete the workbook prior to beginning work. Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Interesting. Ever get any push back from the Scout or district about doing this? The scout is only required to have the proposal signed off before beginning work. They are not required to complete the workbook prior to beginning work. If I understand him correctly, he's talking about the final four signatures that certify the project is completed. His Troop requires the workbook to be done and ready to go before they sign the final signatures, not necessarily the beginning the project ones. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) It has always been my understanding as SM that I sign the project proposal that is to be sent to District/Council for consideration. Then when the project is done and the paperwork is completed, I sign the final document that gets turned in at the end. I NEVER read the project proposal. I only sign off on it. If District/Council thinks I have signed, meaning I am in compliance and agreement with the project, they have made a false assumption. My signature indicates that the boy has completed his project proposal and I am now in the loop of a project in process, nothing more, nothing less. It's always really fun to see what of the many suggestions one tosses out there for Eagle projects, which ones they pick. I usually find out when the project's first work day is announced. I did have one push-back from the Eagle committee wondering whether the project was significant enough to be an Eagle project. I asked if they had talked with the Scout. They said no and I suggested they start there. They never called back but finally approved the project and it went on the front page of the second section of the local paper.... and the front page of the second section of the state-wide paper. I guess it was significant enough to be an Eagle project after all. Edited February 17, 2016 by Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) If I understand him correctly, he's talking about the final four signatures that certify the project is completed. His Troop requires the workbook to be done and ready to go before they sign the final signatures, not necessarily the beginning the project ones. I just read "signatures" so maybe it would help to define the process. It was my understanding the process is: Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project. Scout develops final report.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Edited February 17, 2016 by Krampus Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I just read "signatures" so maybe it would help to define the process. It was my understanding the process is: Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project. Scout develops final report.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign That would be the norm. I can see scenarios where folks would do it : Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project..Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops final report. I'm not advocating for that approach, I imagine it happens enough that it's worth clarifying the steps. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I just read "signatures" so maybe it would help to define the process. It was my understanding the process is: Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project. Scout develops final report.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Yep, that's what I've always thought. Link to post Share on other sites
zuzy 23 Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Hi again, son had SM, CC, and benficiary sign the proposal. I was just wondering if he had to write up the project in full before having Beneficiary and SM sign off on the project. After posting, realized it was a pretty not smart question. OF COURSE he has to fill the book out. I am just so anxious to have him finished with the project and his new troop. SM master is not really dedicated and is ............welll.........................sigh. SM feels slighted because he was not included in email for Project update 2 days before started. Son did not send any emails prior to that. Just talked to scouts at troop meetings WITH SM in room, but playing on his lap top. So, son still has some adjustments to do for project yet. Once they are done and beneficiary is pleased, he will have his booklet signed. He is working on the write-up this week. Now, we have other issues with the two EAgle blue cards he turned in last week. Advancement chair does not want to submit to council because "current" SM did not sign the cards. Son started personal fitness 3 summers ago and I am not clear what the issue is with Personal Management because it was started in "current" troop house in March of last year. Therefore, it should have been sigend by "current" SM. Ahhhh Beuaracrcy, gotta love it................... Link to post Share on other sites
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