Change in The Troop, It's Coming

[Eagledad 2777]

You're going to look back on this one day and laugh. 

 

Barry

[Krampus 696]

Be advised, this is a vent.  Last night was VERY frustrating, and all I have to say is:

 

I HATE NEW SCOUT PATROLS!

 

We call troops who use them Webelos III.  Most have 8-10 Scouts in a patrol with an ASM as lead. How is that not Webelos?

 

Re/menu planning, an old SPL came up with an answer for our unit. He kept a watch and every 7 minutes said "You should be done with [insert name of meal], move on to the next meal." In our unit the patrols develop the base menu but it is the cook's job to fill out the detail (for his FC reqs around cooking), so 7 mins per meal works. Five mins mostly.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh 3452]

We call troops who use them Webelos III.  Most have 8-10 Scouts in a patrol with an ASM as lead. How is that not Webelos?

 

Methinks there's a problem here....

 

Of course that's Webelos!!!

 

One calls them Webelos III and then sets out to set them up as adult led, extended Cub Scout dens without any notion to thinking they should be set up just like any other boy-led, patrol-method grouping and then complain that they don't work.  Yep works for me....

 

Call them anything one wishes, but if one sets them up as a boy-led, patrol-method patrol with an experienced TG to support their efforts, their PL and APL will learn leadership, the TG will teach them about equipment, the Scribe will teach them about records, the Instructors will come in and teach them skills, and the adults will stay out of the process and go off and get another cup of coffee and allow these new boys an opportunity to be a boy led Boy Scout patrol instead of an adult led Cub Scout den.

 

If this is the way troops are setting up faltering NSP's and then saying they're bad news, it answers a lot of questions for me.

 

Remember: It's a New Scout PATROL. 

[blw2 433]

I know we've hashed this around a few times lately, & I see the points against them....

but I have to say as I'm looking at the idea theoretically, I still think it can make sense

So it's 3rd year WEBELOS    

.....one of my developing pet peeves is the term WEBELOS two, etc...  they are all equally WEBELOS, just 1st year, 2nd year, and 3rd year 

 

sorry....ok back on track...

So it's 3rd year WEBELOS.  But I'm thinking of the TG is sort of like the Den Leader

and it seems like that "den leader/TG" could enlist help from other older scouts as needed to get everyone going...... as sort of a responsibility to give back and so on... a scout is helpful, right...

then over time, the higher performers will advance and others won't.... but they could stick together indefinitely (assuming they all like each other and want to).  A few might leave for other patrols as friendships develop, new scouts might join the patrol, and so on...

At some point not so far down the road, the TG is no longer needed, and the younger patrol can carry on as normal.

 

 

but I do understand that it all could be a delicate balance, and without the right prep and guidance, or without the right personality for the TG job, or with just a bad mix of new scouts in the patrol.... it could fall apart in a hurry... but it also seems like it could work really very well, too.

If I'm understanding Stosh's last post, it seems pretty much like that to me..... the relatively new guy.

[Krampus 696]

sorry....ok back on track...

So it's 3rd year WEBELOS.  But I'm thinking of the TG is sort of like the Den Leader

No. If the TG is in charge then he's a patrol leader. If you go with that model then why call him a troop guide. Have him be the NSP PL.

 

and it seems like that "den leader/TG" could enlist help from other older scouts as needed to get everyone going...... as sort of a responsibility to give back and so on...

Which then begs the question: What good is a NSP? If you are going to have a TG/PL and then some older scouts help from time to time, why not just call it a patrol of mixed ages? *BOOM* You now have the patrol method and take the training wheels off the Webelos IIIs. I cannot help but think the whole new scout patrol idea was created by adults to make it easier on them, not better for the boys.

 

then over time, the higher performers will advance and others won't....

This happens in every patrol any way.

 

but they could stick together indefinitely (assuming they all like each other and want to).  A few might leave for other patrols as friendships develop, new scouts might join the patrol, and so on...

At some point not so far down the road, the TG is no longer needed, and the younger patrol can carry on as normal.

In troops I have seen that use the NSP, once you get First Class you go out to "older" patrols. To be honest, the troops in my area that use the NSP concept are all Eagle mills.

 

but I do understand that it all could be a delicate balance, and without the right prep and guidance, or without the right personality for the TG job, or with just a bad mix of new scouts in the patrol.... it could fall apart in a hurry... but it also seems like it could work really very well, too.

The NSP is adding another year of training wheels for the boys. You don't teach them self-sufficiency. They are told what to do, not how to figure out what to do. It is a very Millennial mind set. I think it is done so as to make the stress less on the adults; not having to chase around 6 patrols of rowdy kids rather lump them in one group and put an adult in charge.

 

As you can tell, I am not a fan of NSPs.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Krampus

[MattR 2659]

In troops I have seen that use the NSP, once you get First Class you go out to "older" patrols. To be honest, the troops in my area that use the NSP concept are all Eagle mills.

Really? I've never heard of this before blw2 mentioned it. It's insanely wrong. Maybe this is how grumpy old SMs are created. I'm becoming one of them. The dark side, the ring. I can feel the pull.

[blw2 433]

blw2, on 26 Jan 2016 - 3:05 PM, said:

and it seems like that "den leader/TG" could enlist help from other older scouts as needed to get everyone going...... as sort of a responsibility to give back and so on...

Which then begs the question: What good is a NSP? If you are going to have a TG/PL and then some older scouts help from time to time, why not just call it a patrol of mixed ages? *BOOM* You now have the patrol method and take the training wheels off the Webelos IIIs.  I cannot help but think the whole new scout patrol idea was created by adults to make it easier on them, not better for the boys.

 

I hear everything you're saying

but the question that was begged seems to be answered, in my thinking anyway, in that it allows existing patrols of boys who are friends to stick together for better patrol spirit and so on

and it encourages the new boys to bond as a cohesive patrol.

In your why not situation, it seems like the requirement to mix it up could be negative just as easily as a positive.

 

To me, the arguments against mostly seem to have several predispositions that wouldn't make sense and sort of derail the whole thing

The concept of mixed ages is forcing groups of boys together, or forcing groups of boys apart (adult interference perhaps)... just as the idea of forcing all new scouts into a single patrol is perhaps adult interference

 

and these arguments against NSP all seem to assume that all new scouts have to be  a) new, and b) the same age.  

Now I can see logically that this would mostly be the case...BUT if you take away those requirements, then it allows for the cases where, for example, you might have an experienced scout in another patrol that is willing to leave his patrol for one of many possible reasons... maybe he wants to try his hand at PL, &/or maybe he has a friend in this new patrol, or maybe he's buttig heads with someone in his current patrol and they need to separate, and so on.......
 

I don't know....It just seems that if the "new patrol" is allowed to be more fluid and less rigid, then it might just well settle in pretty quickly to where it needs to be without any of the forcing either way (and even if the boys choose it, I wonder ...are they choosing mixed because it's the suggestion that has been given them (boys can be suggestible after all..), or they think its the best idea because it's the only way they've ever seen it done...

 

Again, I hear ya, several folks here have experience that proves they don't work.

 

AND I'm neither for or against the idea necessarily.

 

but it just seems like there are some good points or plusses to the idea too.

[blw2 433]

Really? I've never heard of this before blw2 mentioned it. It's insanely wrong. Maybe this is how grumpy old SMs are created. I'm becoming one of them. The dark side, the ring. I can feel the pull.

 

I guess for me theoretically, the idea all boils down to one thing

and that is "let scouts stick together as a patrol if they want to".  Don't force it either way...

[Stosh 3452]

Darn it, blw2's comments didn't come with the quote.

 

 

No. If the TG is in charge then he's a patrol leader. If you go with that model then why call him a troop guide. Have him be the NSP PL.

 

I make it explicitly clear that the TG is not in charge of the NSP.  In my troops all PL's are the highest ranking authority in the troop for their patrols.  Everyone else supports their work and that includes the TG for the PL of the NSP.  Basically the TG's focus is to help the NSP PL's get up and running.  He works with the PL, not the patrol.  If the NSP selects one of their own, the TG is going to be busy.  If the NSP selects another boys from the troop to be the PL, the job is a bit easier, but even then the PL may have his hands full with a patrol of new people.  Then if the NSP is really lucky, they get a qualified PL that can handle a NSP situation, the TG can focus on other things.
 
Which then begs the question: What good is a NSP? If you are going to have a TG/PL and then some older scouts help from time to time, why not just call it a patrol of mixed ages? *BOOM* You now have the patrol method and take the training wheels off the Webelos IIIs.

 

The focus of the NSP is different than any of the other patrols.  Having "some older scouts help from time to time" isn't how the structure of the troop is supposed to be done.  For some rather obscure reason, BSA has put a POR out there call Instructor.  I'm sure there are very few troops out there that actually use them as they were intended.  The "mixed" patrols with lets say 4 patrols and 2 boys from the Webelos group in each one.  Instructor is going to conduct woods tools training.  That means EVERY PATROL IN THE TROOP is going to be down two boys for the instruction period.  How much instruction disruption is going to occur in say maybe the first half of every year?  Maybe all year if the boys doing get up to FC.  Maybe if they aren't eagle mills maybe it'll last 18-24 months.  However if the NSP were comprised of only new scouts, the NSP gets instruction and everyone else has business as usual.  It might be a good time to review just exactly what it is that Instructors do to earn their POR.

 

I cannot help but think the whole new scout patrol idea was created by adults to make it easier on them, not better for the boys.
 

I think it's a great way to focus the boy's attention on orienting, integrating and getting to know the new boys in the troop without adult interference.  If it weren't designated a NSP and 12 new Webelos boys came into the troop, how much disruption would there be in the established patrols?  Is this disruption even necessary and how much of his disruption is orchestrated by adult intervention requiring the boys to assimilate the new boys into their patrols?  I'm thinking the NSP was introduced to keep the adults from having to disrupt their patrol structure every year.  Of course that would be a moot point if the troop didn't really use the patrol method anyway.    Then it's a dump the boys into the troop and let things fall where they may.  That's the easiest for the adults.

This happens in every patrol any way.

 

Doesn't have to.
 
In troops I have seen that use the NSP, once you get First Class you go out to "older" patrols. To be honest, the troops in my area that use the NSP concept are all Eagle mills.

 

Once my boys get to FC they don't need to go out to "older" patrols if they don't want to.  This again is contrived by adults. 

 

I'm not sending my boys out into "older" patrols and I am in no way an Eagle mill troop.    And strangely enough I like the NSP idea.    But then I'm a bit different than most.
 
The NSP is adding another year of training wheels for the boys.

 

Nope, my NSP is expected to function just like any other patrol in the troop.  The only thing different is the TG, the SPL/ASPL and Instructors tend to focus on them more than the other patrols until they get their feet on the ground.

 

You don't teach them self-sufficiency.

 

They start learning self-sufficiency at age 11, they don't have to wait until they are 13-14 to start as in another patrol.

 

They are told what to do, not how to figure out what to do.

 

By whom?  They make their own decisions just like any other patrol.  They do have a TG and SPL to seek advice from if needed, but they don't have an ASM assigned to them to Den Lead them for another year.  None of the patrols have adult advisors in my troops.  They sink or swim on their own merits, NSP, too.

 

It is a very Millennial mind set. I think it is done so as to make the stress less on the adults; not having to chase around 6 patrols of rowdy kids rather lump them in one group and put an adult in charge.

 

I would just have 6 TG chase the rowdy kids around rather than having a Cub Pack in my troop.  Everyone whines about none of the older boys working with the younger scouts, they have to have them in the patrols.  Well if that's the way it's set up, then that's fine, but I find that my TG's, my Instructors, PL's all earn their POR's because they have the option to work with these new boys directly and get credit for it, not just do it because the PL told them to do it in the patrol structure.

As you can tell, I am not a fan of NSPs.

 

If this is how NSP's are set up in your neck of the woods, I wouldn't be a fan either.

[Stosh 3452]

I guess for me theoretically, the idea all boils down to one thing

and that is "let scouts stick together as a patrol if they want to".  Don't force it either way...

 

Generally speaking, I don't get involved in the NSP issue very much.  I have to now because my whole troop is basically a NSP. 

 

However, in my former troop, when the Webelos boys crossed over into Boy Scouts they showed up at their first meeting a wee bit nervous.  Usually what happens is there might be one or two of the boys that got to know some of the older boys during the visit meetings/activities, and may be invited into an established patrol.  Of course this is allowed.  The new boy has right of refusal if all his buddies are staying together as a group in the NSP.  The NSP also has the option to select an older boy to be their PL.  The PL-elect has right of refusal.  The TG is also an option for the NSP.  Usually the SPL assigns a qualified TG, once the TG was the former DC for the boys.  Once the DC was selected as PL for the NSP and the SPL still provided a TG to help the former DC. 

 

Every combination is possible and those options stay the same.  If a boy wishes to switch patrols and the PL approves it, it's a done deal.  If the NSP wants to stay together all the way to age 18, it's a done deal.  I don't care one way or the other.  The NSP issue for me is basically preferred by the boys themselves.  They are coming into a new setting, things are different, kinda scary and hanging together as buddies since Tigers is a safe place to be for a lot of these boys.

 

Unlike Kramus' experience of adult contrived NSP's, some of these boys prefer on their own a lot of the dynamics of the NSP, others don't, accommodations for both are allowed in my troops.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagledad 2777]

I guess for me theoretically, the idea all boils down to one thing

and that is "let scouts stick together as a patrol if they want to".  Don't force it either way...

As I've said in earlier post, the main reason adults get in the way of the scouts and their program is their fear of what could happen.

 

Scouts sticking together at the beginning of their Boy Scout experience is such a small small thing in the huge picture of the scouts whole experience. Just how long does it take for boys to make friends? If this is the only reason for defending NSPs, then blw2, you aren't being open minded of what other experienced scouters are saying. And I'm not saying you need to use mixed age patrols, I think some adults just are NSP types. But please don't imply troops using mixed age patrols have less programs, the BSA used mixed age patrols very successfully for 80 years before the NSP was brought into the program. There is no evidence to show that the NSP has improved first year losses, which is why it was implemented. Can you explain that? I can and have many many times. 

 

All I'm saying is that someone with no experience either way shouldn't be selling their soul telling others who have the experience that their program isn't as good a program. 

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

As one can tell from the way Krampus described the NSP in his area, it is a lot different than those using it in my area.  I would assume the same dynamic would hold true for the mixed patrols.  This of course implies a degree of mixture that also may vary.  Mixed by one or two years or do the 16-17 year olds have Webelos cross overs in their patrol?  Maybe they are generally mixed just a little younger boys 11-13, middle group boys 13-15, and older boys 15-17.  Maybe the age based patrols might vary a year or two either way, too.  We discuss the differences but never have really defined what that means.  All I know is there seems to be a general age consensus of the boys coming in together staying somewhat together in the troop.  Now that I am drawing from 3 different packs with my new troop, maybe that won't be an issue anymore.  The boys might break up their groupings, may come in with multiple smaller NSP's of same-pack Webelos, or whatever.  I don't know yet what the boys will decide.  The only factor that I see is how the patrols are grouped and by whom.  There is no adult involvement in the selection and maintenance of patrols in my troops.  The only people who care who's in what patrol are the boys.  So they decide.

[Krampus 696]

Really? I've never heard of this before blw2 mentioned it. It's insanely wrong. Maybe this is how grumpy old SMs are created. I'm becoming one of them. The dark side, the ring. I can feel the pull.

Yes, in my area there are about 1/3 of the troops use the NSP method. All the units I know of that use NSPs are very large (100+ scouts) troops. They put their first years (usually a class of 15-25 scouts) in NSPs. They assign ASMs (usually have 30 on staff) in charge of the NSPs. I have seen them at camporee...they are literally Cub Dens. The ASM shepherds them around like Webelos. Sad really. Some parents like that approach. I laugh when I hear them talk about "boy-led". I am sure they *think* they are, but there is no way a 15 year old SPL can managed a troop of 10 patrols, 100+ kids and 30+ adults on a camp out. Even at 50% participation that's like having two platoons!!!

[Stosh 3452]

Yes, in my area there are about 1/3 of the troops use the NSP method. All the units I know of that use NSPs are very large (100+ scouts) troops. They put their first years (usually a class of 15-25 scouts) in NSPs. They assign ASMs (usually have 30 on staff) in charge of the NSPs. I have seen them at camporee...they are literally Cub Dens. The ASM shepherds them around like Webelos. Sad really. Some parents like that approach. I laugh when I hear them talk about "boy-led". I am sure they *think* they are, but there is no way a 15 year old SPL can managed a troop of 10 patrols, 100+ kids and 30+ adults on a camp out. Even at 50% participation that's like having two platoons!!!

 

THAT is not a boy-led NSP!  You are absolutely correct this is Webelos III! No other way to explain it.

 

30 ASM's?  Adult led all the way!

 

SPL with 10 patrols needs 2-3 ASPL's to handle the crowd.  There would be very little interaction between SPL and PL's it would most likely be good ASPL's handling the patrols and 4 TG's handling the 4 NSP's if run correctly.

 

No way would I get anywhere near a unit like that.  It's kinda sad if one thinks about it a bit.

[TAHAWK 1420]

 

THANKFULLY SPL finished his planning, saw me intervening and took over. I backed off. It’s amusing that they will listen to their just turned 14 year old,  but not listen to their 12 year old TG. SPL did great intervening and helping his TG. SPL gets it!

 

 12 to 14 is two entire grades !  Middle School to High School !   An eternity !!!!