Change in The Troop, It's Coming

[Stosh 3452]

yeah, at this point I honestly don't care about the rank for him, except for the lessons of goal setting, hard work, stick-to-itness, etc...  I figure if he gets 1st class I'm happy, but even that I really don't care that much.  It's more about his improving in most of the points in the scout law (which he does need to improve).  I'd be proud of his eagle, but that for sure isn't my wish for him.

so very true.  I get that & I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt everytime I see something that makes me wonder.

 

 

one of my concerns is that with an active scouting program, he won't really want to camp or hike with old dad since he'll have his fill of monthly camping.... but that's my problem, not his

LOL!  I camped just about every spring through fall weekend growing up.  Never got tired of it.  There's no such thing as too much camping. 

[Sentinel947 1205]

LOL!  I camped just about every spring through fall weekend growing up.  Never got tired of it.  There's no such thing as too much camping. 

 

Never. I even went backpacking in December this year thanks to the above average warmth. 

[Stosh 3452]

Two days ago it was sub zero temperatures.  Today it is above freezing..... and it's Friday..... do the math.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

True story about camping. I'm sitting on a BOR for First Class, and the Scout said the troop didn't camp enough. THAT GOT THE CC's ATTENTION! ( caps for emphasis as he was concerned and ticked off the troop wasn't camping). CC was so concerned the troop wasn't camping, that I had to de-escalate the situation by asking the Scout " how often does the troop go camping?" The Scout said about once a month, except for January when we do the lock in. CC had to laugh and say, " That's about right for a troop. Once you get into the OA  you'll have a few more chances to camp."

 

Considering the OA lodge has 3 Ordeals and a Fellowship, plus goes to conclave ever year, that's an additional 5 camp outs right there. Doesn't include chapter workdays and chapter fundraising events ( running the camp trading post at district and council events.) Hopefully that FC Scout will go through the Ordeal in March.

 

Back to patrol method.

 

I honestly do not think the BSA emphasizes it enough in SM specific training,nor do I think the current recommended format of a NSP, mixed aged, and venture patrols really work, except possibly with LDS units that keep their 11 year olds separate form the rest of the troop.  Sorry I liked the mixed aged and venture patrols format.

 

And while I generally hate the Improved Scouting Program  of the 1970s, two things I did like were Skill Awards and allowing Scouts to sit on the T-2-1 BORs. I liked the idea of the older scouts finding out what's up and making sure they are doing their jobs properly. It gave an sense of ownership.

 

One thing I do not remember in my troop growing up, and I have fought doing to the best of my ability, is having assigned ASMs working with specific patrols.PLs did the bulk of the work. Instructors from the Leadership Corps helped with instruction, and if the PL needed help, the SPL or ASPL would work with the PL to get things done. Only time I had an adult work with me when I was a PL was when I royally screwed up and used some colorful language trying to get my patrol to get things done. Yep I followed the model of my first PL in my first troop; the one I didn't like and eventually left. SM played "bad cop" and corrected me sternly, AS HE SHOULD HAVE ( emphasis).

 

But after the SM was finished taking 10 pounds off my rear, the SPL eventually came to me and talked to me. He advised and mentored me until he Eagled and joined the Navy. He was a major influence,and I needed it. I'm still in contact with him to this day.

 

But other than that correction by the SM, the adults didn't interfere with the Scouts. They let us do our thing, make our mistakes, etc. Heck when I got hypothermia up in Canada, it wasn't the adults who took care of me, but Scouts from my home troop. They were the ones that treated me, and remindedme that the sterno can in my survival kit was to be used in an emergency and "THIS IS AN EMERGENCY, [EAGLE94-A1]!" ( CAPS FOR SCREAMING THIS TIME   ) I want to say the adults monitored the situation, but let us handle it.

 

How many parents today would trust their 15 year old to be treated by 13-17 year olds? 

[blw2 433]

.......In short, I believe most SM's and parents would run a troop the right way (buzzword alert) with the patrol method, youth leadership and youth decision making central to their programs. However, they don't know what they don't know. The challenge for experienced Scouters( Do I count in that category yet?) is to pass on what they/we have learned to others. 

 

Sentinel947

bolding is mine

 

another well said for this statement!  I've been noticing that not too many scouters (well actually none, as far as i know about personally), actually spend any significant time doing extra-curricular reading about scouting, participating here or in similar venues, listening to scoutmastercg podcasts, etc...  I might be wrong about that... there may be some of my friends here & i just don't know it....

 

anyway, i have thought about this a fair bit.  Nothing wrong with not doing this extra thinking about scouting, and it certainly isn't an indication of intent, ability, etc.... but it's just an observation.... that loops back around to some of our threads about practical training, or the lack thereof.  i suspect a lot of folks think they are doing the best service to the scouts, think they are facilitating a real patrol method troop, but just don't know that they don't know enough to see the nuances.  It also doesn't mean they are inferior scouters....nor is somebody like me a really good scouter necessarily... because there's a lot of personality and natural ability or skill in the art of teaching and coaching and the like...

 

and it also doesn't mean that the scouts aren't getting a lot of good out of those programs either.... in fact they probably are getting good from any and all units.

[Sentinel947 1205]

bolding is mine

 

another well said for this statement!  I've been noticing that not too many scouters (well actually none, as far as i know about personally), actually spend any significant time doing extra-curricular reading about scouting, participating here or in similar venues, listening to scoutmastercg podcasts, etc...  I might be wrong about that... there may be some of my friends here & i just don't know it....

 

anyway, i have thought about this a fair bit.  Nothing wrong with not doing this extra thinking about scouting, and it certainly isn't an indication of intent, ability, etc.... but it's just an observation.... that loops back around to some of our threads about practical training, or the lack thereof.  i suspect a lot of folks think they are doing the best service to the scouts, think they are facilitating a real patrol method troop, but just don't know that they don't know enough to see the nuances.  It also doesn't mean they are inferior scouters....nor is somebody like me a really good scouter necessarily... because there's a lot of personality and natural ability or skill in the art of teaching and coaching and the like...

 

and it also doesn't mean that the scouts aren't getting a lot of good out of those programs either.... in fact they probably are getting good from any and all units.

 

I agree with your observations. Leaders genuinely think their Troop is doing well and that they are doing well. Especially if it's a long standing troop and they are adhering to standard operating procedures. However, as we know, SOP's reflect the people who make them, and if the folks in the past who made the SOP's didn't know what they were doing......

 

 I know Scoutmaster Specifics gets a bad rap on the forum here but taking Scoutmaster specifics training as a fresh 18 year old ASM made me get off my high horse and realize two fundamental truths:

 

1. I didn't know everything about Scouting just because I am/was an (Eagle) Scout. 

2. My troop was definitely far off from the goals of the BSA, and Scouting as a tradition. Weak leadership development, weak patrol method, advancement heavy troop. 

 

It was that wake up call that got me to search for resources like Ask Andy, Scoutmastercg, and motivated me to join this forum too. 

 

Sentinel947 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

In regards to  "experience" and leaders. It depends upon when you were involved in Scouting and/or who your leaders were.

 

I know one SM who was an Eagle. but he grew up in the 1970s under the Improved Scouting Program which deemphasized the outdoors. It seems as if the only time his troop camps is when there is a MB weekend, and the kids are all in class. Otherwise there always seems to be a shortage of adults who can camp, and the trip has to get cancelled. Heck at summer camp last year, they had to stay with another troop since only 1 leader went.

 

My troop gorging up, the second one I stayed in the bulk of my career, was established prior to ISP and had the same SM since its founding. ISP didn't really effect them much, and when BSA brought back the OUTING in ScOUTING, the troop kept on as if nothing changed. that's the model of Scouting I have,as well as another ASM.

 

The ASM who will probably take over came in post 1989 when the last bunch of major changes occurred. His troop used the NSP concept with adults assigned to work with them as the venture crew/patrol. Since he was suppose to take over, that is the model my son's troop took.

 

 

But it isn't working. I think the SM isn't happy, several adults are not happy, and the Scouts are not happy. The adults are doing too much, and some of us realize it. Scouts can do the work, and enjoy it when they do, but are not given a chance.

 

Key is trying to find balance.

[Eagledad 2777]

In regards to  "experience" and leaders. It depends upon when you were involved in Scouting and/or who your leaders were.

 

 

True, but I found in most cases even the adults who came from troop with a bad patrol method experiences were still about three years a head of new troops that had adults with no experience. The reason I found is that when adults have no knowledge of scouting (no vision), they start with the simplest most obvious approach, "advancement". Skills for advancement are taught in training and the requirements for advancement are easy to read and understand in the handbook. How many discussion have we seen on the forums over the years of scouters wanting more "more" scouts skills training for adults? How often do they ask for more patrol method? And, we adults by human nature are insecure and need constant checks (gratification) for our hard work. Advancement does that quite well.

 

And these aren't helicopter parent types looking for ways to pump up their kids self esteem, they are normal folks like you and me wanting to do the right thing with the troop program. They just don't have a vision for a starting place. That is why even scouters with a poor background of the patrol method have a big head start on adults with no experience. Scouters with some experience remember the comradery of sitting with buddies at campfire telling stories and poking the fire with the stick, or cooking the fish they caught earlier that day. They know that advancement is not the starting place or vision. Some experience more often than not trumps no experience. 

 

Funny story, I have friend who decided he wanted to be a SM. So found a church to support him and started one. He had zero knowledge of scouting and took off in the direction I just described. He was trained all they to Woodbadge, so he was ready. After about nine months, he called me and asked how I kept our scouts interested because his scouts were burned out and started hating campouts. I asked him to describe a typical day on the campout and he said that he gets the scouts up at 7:00 to prepare breakfast. After breakfast they work on advancement. Then lunch and after lunch they work on advancement. Eat supper, have camp fire and go to bed. Well we had quite a talk that day. He eventually saw his lack of skills was hurting the program and stepped down to let his Eagle buddy take over. Interesting thing was that while he by his own admittance a terrible SM, he was a great salesman and recruited 90 scouts in one year. The DE loved him.  

 

Barry

[perdidochas 658]

 

How many parents today would trust their 15 year old to be treated by 13-17 year olds? 

 

I would, but I agree that it's rare.

[blw2 433]

I agree with your observations. Leaders genuinely think their Troop is doing well and that they are doing well. Especially if it's a long standing troop and they are adhering to standard operating procedures. However, as we know, SOP's reflect the people who make them, and if the folks in the past who made the SOP's didn't know what they were doing............

Sentinel947 

SOP's are a big part of it

but a unit with even the absolute theoretical best SOP's can be derailed I think, by a new adult coming in and "improving" something.  I suppose the same could be said about a new youth leader... a PL or SPL for example, "improving" something.... maybe based on something they're getting from their parents, or their own ideas....

All well intentioned... but how are they to know if they don't know, training stinks, and the great all knowing leaders from the past don't do a proper handoff....

[Sentinel947 1205]

SOP's are a big part of it

but a unit with even the absolute theoretical best SOP's can be derailed I think, by a new adult coming in and "improving" something.  I suppose the same could be said about a new youth leader... a PL or SPL for example, "improving" something.... maybe based on something they're getting from their parents, or their own ideas....

All well intentioned... but how are they to know if they don't know, training stinks, and the great all knowing leaders from the past don't do a proper handoff....

I'd say in general, a Patrol, PL or SPL trying to overhaul SOP's and experiment is part of the leadership and growth of the program. 

On the flip side, the goal of the program is not to develop leadership in adults. It can happen, (I'm an example of it,) but on the whole Scoutmasters and CCs need to have a good start on how to do their jobs properly from whoever held the role before them. 

[Stosh 3452]

I get a little nervous when one starts using management language when it comes to leadership development with the boys.  Every boy is different and SOP's are counter-intuitive to that.  Boys working on leadership need to focus on their skills they are bringing to the table and not worry about the last guy's SOP that he worked on.

 

When the leadership changes in my troops, it has been because of issues other than SOP.  An older boy ages out, the boy signed up for football and now needs to pass the baton.  or the boy got elected and isn't doing the job and his buddies replace him.  A boy following a well-liked aged out boy is going to have a tough time with the other boy's SOP, some pretty big shoes to fill and his skills, maybe nobody's skill set can replace him.  This does not bode well for the successors.  Temporary stepping down leader?  His replacement might be just a temp fill in until the season's over.  He will do well just to keep things going and shouldn't be messing with the SOP.  The third case situation?  Well if the new leader does anything, it'll be an improvement, but that isn't necessarily going to be enough.

 

Also judging a boy's leadership style with management measurements is really unfair to the boy.

 

I have had flamboyant, outgoing, charismatic leaders who weren't worth a nickel with management and relied heavily on his assistants for that.  I have had quiet, soft-spoken, caring leaders who were equally liked by the boys that didn't need the assistants as much. 

 

Know your skills, know your strengths, don't worry about any SOP, just take care of your boys and you'll do just fine.

[blw2 433]

I get a little nervous when one starts using management language when it comes to leadership development with the boys.  Every boy is different and SOP's are counter-intuitive to that.  Boys working on leadership need to focus on their skills they are bringing to the table and not worry about the last guy's SOP that he worked on.

 

When the leadership changes in my troops, it has been because of issues other than SOP.  An older boy ages out, the boy signed up for football and now needs to pass the baton.  or the boy got elected and isn't doing the job and his buddies replace him.  A boy following a well-liked aged out boy is going to have a tough time with the other boy's SOP, some pretty big shoes to fill and his skills, maybe nobody's skill set can replace him.  This does not bode well for the successors.  Temporary stepping down leader?  His replacement might be just a temp fill in until the season's over.  He will do well just to keep things going and shouldn't be messing with the SOP.  The third case situation?  Well if the new leader does anything, it'll be an improvement, but that isn't necessarily going to be enough.

 

Also judging a boy's leadership style with management measurements is really unfair to the boy.

 

I have had flamboyant, outgoing, charismatic leaders who weren't worth a nickel with management and relied heavily on his assistants for that.  I have had quiet, soft-spoken, caring leaders who were equally liked by the boys that didn't need the assistants as much. 

 

Know your skills, know your strengths, don't worry about any SOP, just take care of your boys and you'll do just fine.

I think what he meant by SOP, wasn't some sort of formal management type documented thing, but just one of any of those "doing it because that's the way it's always been done, & I don't know any better" things

[Stosh 3452]

St

 

I think what he meant by SOP, wasn't some sort of formal management type documented thing, but just one of any of those "doing it because that's the way it's always been done, & I don't know any better" things

Standard Operating Procedure, a.k.a. That's the way we've always done it before 

 

On the other hand, I like my boys to do a little flying by the seat of their pants.  It allows them to try out their skills to see how they work, kinda like making sure they have wings before kicking them out of the nest.  About half way from the nest to the ground every little bird has to figure it out on their own terms what works best for them. 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Be advised, this is a vent.  Last night was VERY frustrating, and all I have to say is:

 

I HATE NEW SCOUT PATROLS!

 

SPL wasn’t prepared, didn’t have his tablet with his plans in it with him, so while he rehashed his plans for last nite, he sent the patrols to patrol corners to plan for the upcoming camp out.

 

Took them an hour to do the menus!

 

Nobody was listening to TG as PL was MIA and APL called and said he was unable to attend due to school.

 

One Scout kept Trying to do another Scout’s job because “I’ve done that before.†Kept trying to take the paper away, despite repeated attempts to stop it by the TG.

 

One guy in the patrol is a troublemaker and causes problems. Kept distracting the patrol. And delaying the process. Again deliberately causing problems.

 

One Scout kept running back and forth to daddy trying to get dad give him the answers. TG had the answers.

 

And one guy who was being ignored got extremely frustrated.  He tried to have an SM conference since he is ready for Tenderfoot and Second Class BORs, and if he can get one requirement in for next week, First Class. SM gruffly rebuffed him saying he needs to be with his patrol, which further frustrated the Scout.

 

Right or wrong, I intervened as my patience ran out with this Charlie Foxtrot.

 

To the Scout that kept trying to do another’s job, I told him “good that you know what to do, but now it’s his turn to learn how to do it.†that settled that.

 

To the trouble maker, when he mentioned pizza for lunch I said, “Pizza takes a while to cook. That’s a better dinner. So you got dinner figured out, focus back on lunch.†The look on his face, as well as the others was priceless. Comments of “we can’t have pizza on a camp out†arose, and TG said yes we can as he did it with me in Cub Scouts. Unfortunately they went to hot dogs, thanks to the SPL. (More on that in a minute). Then when the troublemaker realized this comments were not going to be tolerated, he wanted to join gametime with the rest of the troop since the patrol ran over and was missing out on fun stuff. His comment was, “can I go and play since I’m not camping?†My response was, “No, you are part of this patrol. You need to stay with the patrol and help out.†He was ticked off.  Thankfully he will be moving within the next  5-8 months.

 

To the guy who kept running to dad, I told him he needs to stay and do his job, then talk to his dad later.

 

The extremely frustrated Scout was the biggest challenge. I had to talk to him after the meeting. More on that in a bit too.

 

THANKFULLY SPL finished his planning, saw me intervening and took over. I backed off. It’s amusing that they will listen to their just turned 14 year old,  but not listen to their 12 year old TG. SPL did great intervening and helping his TG. SPL gets it!

 

My only complaint was  telling them to make something easy like hot dogs for dinner. He didn’t believe that you can make a pizza on a camp out. My solution to that, and the adults agreed is the following: Adults are having pizza for dinner on the camp out.    Who knows we may have enough to give out samples, but I doubt it.

 

As for the frustrated Scout. that is a challenge. The one scout he got along with in the patrol, was moved to the other “NSP†patrol. I use the quotes because the patrol is more mixed aged than all new Scouts. But since only 1 has First Class, using the current BSA methodology, they are an NSP.†The trouble maker and him are the remaining founders of their patrol from the beginning, Everyone else joined afterwards, and because they came from 3 different packs now, he doesn’t really know anyone, and  it’s frustrating him. One reason why my son wanted to become TG; he’s friends with the frustrated Scout, sees the frustration, and is trying to help him out.

 

Because he doesn’t really know anyone, he gets ignored constantly. Part of it is maturity. He can be a goofball at times. But part of it may be jealousy. He’s been asked to teach some backpacking classes since he’s done part of the AT with his family.  Yep he’s a backpacker, and one of the comments was “ we keep going to the same places over and over. We don’t do anything fun like hiking (his term for backpacking).†Troublemaker added fuel to that by saying, “Quit complaining, we like easy camp outs.†I admit it ticked me off some too. Yes he needs some maturing, but he knows his stuff. Heck he's doing the Philmont prep trip in may. The things that have held him back from First Class are the 30 days of exercises for Tenderfoot, and ID 10 plants.

 

But the thing that was the straw that broke the camel’s back was when the SM gruffly sent him back to his patrol without letting him ask for an SM conference. Scout is thinking about switching troops. In fact I think he’s visiting one tonite.  I don’t blame him one bit. I know dad said he wants to try and keep him in the troop until after summer camp. Part of that is dad knows the troop is rethinking how the patrols are set up, and are wanting to go a mixed aged patrol route. Part of it is the summer camp deposit.

 

The part I hate about the entire NSP, is that there is no “peer-to-peer†instruction. The Scouts in the patrol who have the knowledge, and have the skills to work with and teach the rest of the patrol are being ignored and are getting frustrated. My son is getting frustrated with the entire situation. I think when the patrol listened to the SPL and not him was his breaking point. He’s no longer having fun, and told me, “I think we need to mix everyone up.â€

 

So far 3 folks, 2 in the older scout patrol and a TG said we need to mix things up.

 

Thanks for allowing me to vent.