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eagle77

Cradle Of Liberty Council Has Given In

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The council did not "give in". They adopted the policy they believe is the right policy.  

 

...and in violation of the national policy. Couldn't wait until October, just had to ram-rod something through. 

 

This question is asked many times in this forum so let's apply this question to this council: How scout-like is it to knowingly break a rule? Especially when you know it is about to be changed? What message does that send to the scouts? It's okay to break a rule of roughly 50% of you believe the rule is wrong?

 

We all discriminate in one way or the other so all this talk about being non-discriminatory is basically political BS.  We all have our own little prejudices that we justify away so yes we are discriminatory, businesses are, churches are, organizations of all sorts are, the government is, and BSA has just not buckled under to the PR du jour.

 

We used to be a country of laws, but now that the Constitution has been neutered, it's anything goes. 

 

I'm telling you @@Stosh, my unit is already discussing bringing a few beers for our campfire down time. Maybe we will teach blackpowder rifle to ALL of our scouts. Maybe we will let ALL of our scouts drive ATVs. Maybe we teach pistols along with rifle and shotgun. Maybe we let Webelos use our archery and tomahawks.

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...and in violation of the national policy. Couldn't wait until October, just had to ram-rod something through. 

 

This question is asked many times in this forum so let's apply this question to this council: How scout-like is it to knowingly break a rule? Especially when you know it is about to be changed? What message does that send to the scouts? It's okay to break a rule of roughly 50% of you believe the rule is wrong?

 

 

I'm telling you @@Stosh, my unit is already discussing bringing a few beers for our campfire down time. Maybe we will teach blackpowder rifle to ALL of our scouts. Maybe we will let ALL of our scouts drive ATVs. Maybe we teach pistols along with rifle and shotgun. Maybe we let Webelos use our archery and tomahawks.

 

1. "First be sure you are right, then go ahead"  - Davy Crockett. Sort of the American way whether dumping tea in the harbor, sitting in the front of the bus,  or shooting aquirt guns.

 

2. Yes, a historic re-enactment of the first rendezvous, 1825 McKinnon, WY. The 90th anniversary!

James Beckwourth describes: "Mirth, songs, dancing, shouting, trading, running, jumping, singing, racing, target-shooting, yarns, frolic, with all sorts of extravagances that white men or Indians could invent

The first rendezvous of white traders and trappers in the Rocky Mountains occurred in July 1825 just north of McKinnon along the Henrys Fork river. They joined members of William Henry Ashley's expedition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountain_Rendezvous

 

My $0.02

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1. "First be sure you are right, then go ahead"  - Davy Crockett. Sort of the American way whether dumping tea in the harbor, sitting in the front of the bus,  or shooting aquirt guns.

 

Please tell me we are not equating what this council is doing with Rosa Parks or the Sons of Liberty.

 

One can never know what "right" is. It is a matter of perception in many cases.

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@ It is always interesting what is allowed and what is not allowed.  Even with National's approval, the rules are routinely ignored.  

 

My districts all have asked me to come in and do a living history for a camporee at one time or another.  It is Civil War era so yes, I do it correctly.  The lantern is inside the tent and it's not battery operated to look like a candle either, it's a candle.  The black powder gun is real and demonstrations and live shoots have occurred at these events.  The .45 Navy Colt was too much of a gun to handle by the boys, but they loved the .58 Cal. Enfield.  If one doesn't want living history, then don't ask me to show up to do so.

 

The Venture Crew did not use eye protection and used wads of cotton for ear protection.  They handled raw black powder and poured it down gun barrels too hot to handle.  The boys in the back row would fire over the shoulder of the man standing right in front of them.They aimed and fired blank rounds (30' flames out the barrel) at other people.  No one was a certified range master and had they been they would have been appalled. They reenacted combat tactics for the public.  Some of the older boys tried out the cigars and pipes common to the era.  The three pan wash station was never used.  Remarkably in the reenactment world the safest groups were the artillery units.  They had to be specially trained and certified every year by a reenacting oversight group in order to take the field.  The cavalry and infantry all they had to do was show up.  Venturing is open to cavalry and infantry, but BSA disallows participation in artillery.  REALLY REALLY bad research on the part of BSA on that issue.

 

With a track record like that how does anyone really take seriously the policies of the BSA?

 

If we're going to have a black powder at your party, can I bring my double-barreled 10 gauge?

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The Venture Crew did not use eye protection and used wads of cotton for ear protection.  They handled raw black powder and poured it down gun barrels too hot to handle.  The boys in the back row would fire over the shoulder of the man standing right in front of them.They aimed and fired blank rounds (30' flames out the barrel) at other people.  No one was a certified range master and had they been they would have been appalled. They reenacted combat tactics for the public.  Some of the older boys tried out the cigars and pipes common to the era.  The three pan wash station was never used.  Remarkably in the reenactment world the safest groups were the artillery units.  They had to be specially trained and certified every year by a reenacting oversight group in order to take the field.  The cavalry and infantry all they had to do was show up.  Venturing is open to cavalry and infantry, but BSA disallows participation in artillery.  REALLY REALLY bad research on the part of BSA on that issue.

 

With a track record like that how does anyone really take seriously the policies of the BSA?

 

If we're going to have a black powder at your party, can I bring my double-barreled 10 gauge?

 

Yup, you can even bring your canon. ;) We have several Civil War and Western re-enactors in our units. One owns a cannon. ;) 

 

Our guys are seriously considering thumbing our nose at BSA once this [change] officially goes through. If national is going to allow groups to pick and choose if they want to adhere to a current policy then we will take that as lead to do the same. There's no good reason to bar scouts from using pistols or black powder (and yet allow rifles and shotguns) if there is proper training and supervision. Given the Constitution (for now) gives us the right to keep and bear arms, why would BSA want to infringe on our rights? 

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It's ironic that Gates said the BSA needs to act quickly in order to control the discussion and yet they are quickly losing control within their own ranks.

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It's ironic that Gates said the BSA needs to act quickly in order to control the discussion and yet they are quickly losing control within their own ranks.

October is quick for BSA.

 

Let's face it, this issue caught them by surprise. They need time to find a scapegoat and places to hide when the crappola hits the fan. ;)

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Rick, that's a flawed choice. It is possible to be conservative while serving a broad spectrum of faiths...perhaps not easy to do this without being dominated by one or the other faiths...but possible. And yes, Trail Life does seem to fit the description you gave.

I'm confused, how is it a flawed choice? The BSA is either "totally non-sectarian" or isn't. Right now it isn't as it's giving the finger to more accepting faiths (that man might be your minister, but he is unfit to be a leader in the unit you charter).

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The BSA needs to decide, is it a pluralistic American organization? Or a conservative Christians only group (don't we have Trail Life for that now?)?

Your alternative to "pluralistic American" was both 'conservative' and 'Christian'. I'm just noting that 1) those two linked characteristics that shouldn't necessarily be linked that way and 2) there are more potential alternatives out there than "...a conservative Christians only group".

Your statement implied there were no other alternatives for BSA to choose from.

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One can never know what "right" is. It is a matter of perception in many cases.

An interesting statement from someone who is a local leader of an organization that has whole lists of things that are "known" to be the "right" way to act, e.g. trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc. etc.

 

I'm also pretty sure that most of the people in this forum who oppose changes to the policy in question believe we CAN know what's right. Some of them, in fact, seem to be absolutely certain they know what's right under all circumstances. I also suspect that if I did a search in this forum, I could find examples of YOU sounding like you know what's "right" on various issues. (And for me too, by the way, although I think I do so less often than some others.)

Edited by NJCubScouter

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I carry conceal carry permits for a number of states.  Does that mean when I'm responsible for the protection of my scouts I have to leave my gun at home?  I always leave my gun in the car when I attend church services, but now maybe after this week, I'll have to rethink that policy.

 

BSA overrides local and state laws in their policy demands for the program.  It's kinda like the sheath knife policies that crop up here and there.  They just don't make any sense.

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By the way, how many IH's are there out there that are openly homosexual?  I'm sure BSA hasn't done an audit on that yet.  Just adds more to the hypocrisy.  Either they buckle under or take a cue from their Sccout Law on Bravery and take a stand.  As far as I know Brave in the Law has not been watered down to A Scout is Wishy Washy as of yet.

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@@NJCubScouter, as I said right can be a matter of perception. You have your perception and I have mine.

 

Yes there clear cut situations of right and wrong. But there are just as many cases where what is "right" is not clear or may be situational.

 

Let's not pretend any of this is clear cut or right. It's colored by one's perception.

Edited by Bad Wolf

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I'm going to start bringing beer to camp outs. Maybe my council can change the policy. ;)

 

come and do scouting in the UK, gay are allowed, and you can bring beer on camps :)

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And that merely constitutes more evidence that if this country goes in that direction, civilization has ended, lol. Beer! Of all things!

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