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nextgenscouter1

Churches Evicting Troops, and a new organization

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I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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I don't know exactly what was in the letter, and what was the "lead in...." and "....in summery" that were in the priests own words to fill out the letter in the Priests own words.. Was the letter simply filled with carefully molded innuendos, and the priest made it more or less toxic???.. That I don't know.. The one my husband, brother-in-law went to was inappropriate.. The one that hit the papers where (I think it was a arch-bishop) likened Obama to Hitler & Stalin hit the paper, and when people demanded an apology from him, he doubled down and the Catholic offices backed him up.. The ones where the priest basically read the letter, then talked about why the Catholic Church was wrong in having this read, and the pros & cons of both parties, and why the church should not wade into politics also hit the paper.. Fun week...

 

It rose to people trying to get the IRS's attention to have the Catholic church loose it's tax exemption, because there is something in the laws that churches using their pulpit for swaying elections was a reason for them to remove it.. The IRS kind of plugged their ears and looked the other way, they did not want to open that kettle of fish..

 

Then about a month later there was supposed to be some Sunday where all churches, Catholic Evangelical and whoever else waded into politics in a way they should not, were going to challenge the IRS law, (Don't know why, if they wanted to go to court on the issue or felt embolden and wanted to prove they could do what they want, and the IRS would do nothing)..Anyway on this particular Sunday all these churches were going to give sermon on who to vote for and why.. (All were Republican leaning).. The lead up to this day was big, then I waited to hear the aftermath, and what happened, and who stepped way over the line.. And.... Nothing.... I don't know if it took place, or all the churches chickened out or what..

 

But, all of that... ALL OF THAT... Is why I fear organized religion.. For me religion in America got very scary..

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Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Yeah, they'll take the young'uns any flavor, they can be molded.. But you have to be the "right kind" of Christian to be an adult leader.. Catholics and protestants are ok (but I don't know if all Protestants as some are very liberal).. LDS is not the "right kind" of Christian.. Then anyone who is not Christian, or a stay at home Christian is not allowed either..

 

SSScout - don't know if it is a change from when you were an Eagle and today, but now you need someone to attest that you have a belief of some kind.. Doesn't need to be your priest.. Could be a parent or someone else in the community.

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I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

I was a scout in the 1960s and an adult program director in the late 1970s.

I knew several gay scouts, however they were not really out in the open then.

 

I don't recall anybody ever being kicked out for not being religious.

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An article in the Washington Post about a local Catholic church that has kicked out its BSA pack and troop and is replacing them with a TLUSA unit. Apparently there has not been a lot of impact in the National Capital Area Council as only two other troops have made this move out of 1700+ units.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-virginia-catholic-priest-is-in-minority-in-region-in-breaking-with-boy-scouts-over-gays/2014/02/15/949229f4-95f4-11e3-8461-8a24c7bf0653_story.html?hpid=z5

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An article in the Washington Post about a local Catholic church that has kicked out its BSA pack and troop and is replacing them with a TLUSA unit. Apparently there has not been a lot of impact in the National Capital Area Council as only two other troops have made this move out of 1700+ units.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-virginia-catholic-priest-is-in-minority-in-region-in-breaking-with-boy-scouts-over-gays/2014/02/15/949229f4-95f4-11e3-8461-8a24c7bf0653_story.html?hpid=z5

Love this line

 

"St. Raymond will instead sponsor units of a new organization  Trail Life USA. It’s just like the Boy Scouts, except that it officially embraces “a Christian worldview†and discriminates against boys who refuse to hide their homosexuality."

 

Not "are not homosexual", not, "refrain from homosexual behavior"... Nope, all is good.. as long as you lie about it and hide it..

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An article in the Washington Post about a local Catholic church that has kicked out its BSA pack and troop and is replacing them with a TLUSA unit. Apparently there has not been a lot of impact in the National Capital Area Council as only two other troops have made this move out of 1700+ units.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-virginia-catholic-priest-is-in-minority-in-region-in-breaking-with-boy-scouts-over-gays/2014/02/15/949229f4-95f4-11e3-8461-8a24c7bf0653_story.html?hpid=z5

I wonder if they expect their boys to be trustworthy?

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I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

American Heritage Girls is the same people who founded TLUSA

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Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

SSScout: According to the organizers of the meeting I attended, Catholics are welcome because they are Trinitarian Christians. Trail Life adult membership policy seems to be along the same lines as Baden-Powell's greatest rival, "The British Boy Scouts," also know as the "Nicene Creed Scouts."

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An article in the Washington Post about a local Catholic church that has kicked out its BSA pack and troop and is replacing them with a TLUSA unit. Apparently there has not been a lot of impact in the National Capital Area Council as only two other troops have made this move out of 1700+ units.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-virginia-catholic-priest-is-in-minority-in-region-in-breaking-with-boy-scouts-over-gays/2014/02/15/949229f4-95f4-11e3-8461-8a24c7bf0653_story.html?hpid=z5

According to that same article, his diocese Cardinal does not agree with Father John De Celles, nor does Pope Francis. I see re-assignment coming.

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Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

As a Catholic, I wouldn't feel comfortable in an explicitly Christian organization unless it was explicitly Catholic. There are some Protestant groups that really do not like Catholics.

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I inquired about TLUSA, but I don't attend, nor belong to, any church, so I guess I am out lol
If I didn't have so few hours in my day already, I might be tempted to apply as an adult leader just to see if a Quaker could Qualify. We are definitely not "trinitarian", and some of us might not be as Christian as some, but then I'd have to discuss the Light within (mt 5:16?)

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I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ah. I think I understand. I don't think you have much to fear from Catholics in America. Many of them don't buy into the actual doctrines of the Church anyways. =/

 

In my Diocese, (Cincinnati) My priest gave a talk about the importance of voting and voting in a way that honors God. He definitely covered abortion, euthanasia, and charity to the poor, but I don't remember coming out of that thinking he had a noticeable tilt. To a non-Catholic that might seem political, but to an Catholic like myself, that's a reflection of the Church's teachings. Now if they push or promote a candidate or a party, like you said, that's different. It's dangerous on a totally different level. Why Catholics and Republicans agree on a few things, it would be foolish of the Church to align herself with Republicanism, because I can point to a few Republican positions that violate Catholic Teachings. Ultimately in an election Catholics are called to vote for the lesser of evils.

 

I don't like the idea of the Church pushing people to vote for one candidate or another. But the Church should definitely tell the faithful what kind of people they should vote for. I don't see the problem with a Church acting like any other special interest group.

 

I guess I don't understand your fear. That in a democracy one group or another will exercise a tyranny of the majority in a way that could be harmful to you? Why is it only a religion that's scary? Couldn't that be any group of people, religious or not? Thankfully our Founding Fathers did a pretty good job of creating a system to prevent that at the Federal Level.

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An article in the Washington Post about a local Catholic church that has kicked out its BSA pack and troop and is replacing them with a TLUSA unit. Apparently there has not been a lot of impact in the National Capital Area Council as only two other troops have made this move out of 1700+ units.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-virginia-catholic-priest-is-in-minority-in-region-in-breaking-with-boy-scouts-over-gays/2014/02/15/949229f4-95f4-11e3-8461-8a24c7bf0653_story.html?hpid=z5

Always a shameful and scandalous to see a Priest who doesn't understand the Catechism. I see reassignment or forced retirement coming if he keeps preaching what he is preaching.

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I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have no problem with the church just putting out their beliefs and saying you should vote based on what candidate upholds those beliefs as best as possible. As you say, both parties will have positives or negatives and you are still left with figuring out which of those values a candidate is more in tune with. It is also stated in a positive light, and totally unbiased..

 

It is when the speech from the pulpit turns to a negative about how wrong and awful one group is to you.. The sermons meant to anger and enrage the congregation against a group of people or a political party.. The sermons that railed on about how awful Obamacare was and how it was religious persecution like the Jews suffered, Or the personal attacks to Obama likening him to Hitlar and Stallin. All the churches banning together for a day of protest about a government rule they dislike and insisting they have the freedom of speech to name exactly who their congregation should vote for..

 

If you use the pulpit to anger and send the congregation on a mission against a group of people, or to try to get them to vote as a unit for the specific candidates you support is just wrong. Use the pulpit in order to stage a protest against a government rule by simply organizing all the churches to make a stand of protest on a specific date, is the wrong use of the church..

 

using the pulpit to :

Promoting peace ... Good,

Raising awareness ... Good,

Helping others ... Good,

Inciting anger (especially against a group of people) ... Bad..

Taking a stance in Protest against the government .. Bad..

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