Atheist uprooting Christmas

[moosetracker]

So the following article got me to thinking.

 

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-los-angeles/atheist-displays-displace-nativity-scenes-santa-monica-park-this-xmas..

 

Personally, I am one of the few who think some day athiest may have a place in BSA, but the do have a slimmer chance then the homosexual issue.. They have a "never" chance with this type of attitude, because they are not respectful or reverent of other peoples beliefs..

 

Taking up spaces in the park to mock other peoples beliefs, may be "free speech" but is not courteous, kind, helpful, friendly or reverent..

 

I guess the atheist I know are not like these people.. They have just examined their own beliefs and found it hard to believe in a God. But, they still practice and believe in being courteous, kind, helpful, friendly or reverent.. They respect others peoples beliefs, and I could never see them taking part in something like this.

 

Religions have their "fringe" or "over-zelous" and loud and pompous believers.. Those who protest outside abortion clinics, or protest the war.. Including holding up hateful signs at a military funeral service..

 

I have always known there were the "radical" atheists out there, trying to do what they can to stomp religion out of everything.. But I have never personally known one.. I am though unsure of what percentage is this way.. Is it a "fringe" group, or half of them? Doubt it is the majority.

 

But this group will definatly be who will make sure BSA will never open up to the "peaceful" atheists, for fear that the other group would come in force the belief in God out of the BSA, rather then peaceful take part in all but this belief.

 

And I know many of you in BSA, can not even foresee allowing a group in that does not accept all that BSA believes in.. Which even if the radical atheist all mysteriously disappeared tomorrow, would still make alot of the BSA not accept them in, because they do not believe in everything that BSA stands for.. As I said, a much harder sell for them to ever be accepted..

 

For this town, I think the lottery idea was a failure. They said it was the first year they tried it, in order to be open to everyone.. A better way would be to give a spot to each Religion and one spot to the athiest (if they must)..

[pchadbo]

This hit upon one of my big nerves. The Constitution of the United States does NOT include the phrase "seperation of Church and State" it says the the Government cannot establish a religion. This is VERY different from not being able to worship or observe religious traditions in a government center.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Looks to me like the city unlawfully gave one particular religious group a public forum that nobody else could use for 60 years, then finally created a fair lottery system, and the Christians weren't very lucky.

 

Taking up spaces in the park to mock other peoples beliefs, may be "free speech" but is not courteous, kind, helpful, friendly or reverent..

 

Neither is the BSA's official reason for excluding gays -- they aren't "clean" or "morally straight". Oh, and you should look up how some scouts in this forum have responded to me. Start way back with my first posts, where I pointed out that public schools couldn't legally charter BSA units that exclude atheists.

 

For this town, I think the lottery idea was a failure. They said it was the first year they tried it, in order to be open to everyone.. A better way would be to give a spot to each Religion and one spot to the athiest (if they must)..

 

Your method would give the Christians even fewer displays than they got this year -- that's an improvement? And you still haven't solved it if you have more religions than display areas.

[packsaddle]

"A better way would be to give a spot to each Religion and one spot to the athiest (if they must).."

Gad! I can barely fathom all the different flavors of Baptist, much less the rest of Protestantdom. Can you even imagine the potential jumbled assembly of displays....the debris....the cleanup bill?

Might as well just call in the 'occupy' people let them have it!

Of course, it could be that some fringe religions would not necessarily identify with pagan holidays...maybe they wouldn't show up for it.

 

I say ban it all! Bah Humbug!

[moosetracker]

Merlyn - you seem to be lumping all religions into a group of one or seem to know that the town only has one religion.. Catholics is one group, Methodist is one group, Jewish is one group, Episcopalian is one group, Baptist is one group, LDS is one group, then your athiest is one group..

 

I disagree with unlawfully gave one particular religious group a public forum that nobody else could use for 60 years First off it is not one religion.. Second off if the athiests had been fighting for a spot at Christmas and denied for 60 years, you could say they unlawfully did not treat them equally.. I doubt athiest have been fighting for a spot in the park for 60 years unsuccessfully..

 

PackSaddle - There are all the religions of the world.. Then there are the religions in this town who want to have a display..

 

Currently what you had was each church as a group of people enter the lottery with a single entry, and athiest as individual people (not a group) enter the lottery, although it is obvious they acted as a unified source..

 

Either that, or the Religions will counter attack next year by having each individual member of each church enter the lottery same as the individual athiests entered it.. That way the Catholics of one church may get 3 plots, the Baptist 2 plots etc..

 

Most likely if the churches unified and had their members each send in a seprate ballot they can in numbers out flood what the Athiests did this year, because not all Athiests are unified in mocking the religions, they just are quietly happy with their beliefs and still respect their friends and family who remain with religious faith..

 

I don't doubt you have had nastiness sent your way Merlyn, but then you give as well as you get.. And about the gays we are in agreement.. The idea of what is morally straight is different between individuals and between religions.. The idea that homosexuals are not morally straight is following only some religious beliefs and not respecting the beliefs of other religions or individuals..

 

Also although I don't know how it can happen.. I am one of the small few in this group who can see athiests allowed someday.. But, reverent must be followed in at least the version of the dictionary which is to be respectful of others (I only see the defination of reverent meaning a belief in God, in the BSA definition).. Also to join the rest of the BS Law would need to be upheld by it's members..

 

Therefore, if ever BSA allowed athiests, those athiests who wish to join BSA to destroy the beliefs of others, and feel that fair is only when they get their way, would still not have a leg to stand on when they were booted out the door...

 

At this point in time Merlyn, although I would love to keep an open mind to the possibility of someday, I have to think that day will be far off.. And I am sorry for that due to those athiest I know who are very respectful of others and can learn to compromise and live in peace.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[WAKWIB]

Why are atheists interested in a holiday display anyway? Shouldn't Christmas just be like any other day for them? There seem to be a lot of atheists who spend a great deal of time talking about God and religion. I don't get it. If you don't want something, walk away and forget about it.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

moosetracker writes:

Merlyn - you seem to be lumping all religions into a group of one or seem to know that the town only has one religion.. Catholics is one group, Methodist is one group, Jewish is one group, Episcopalian is one group, Baptist is one group, LDS is one group, then your athiest is one group..

 

The original suggestion was to divide it by "religions", not sects. So Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. Of course, if you get to subdivide Christian in the Catholic, Methodist, etc. then why not divide atheists into atheist, agnostic, new atheists, etc. Which only points out the problem if free speech is restricted by groups (People's Front of Judea vs. Judean People's Front). And by the way, these are people who live in another state, they aren't "my" atheist group.

 

Most likely if the churches unified and had their members each send in a seprate ballot they can in numbers out flood what the Athiests did this year, because not all Athiests are unified in mocking the religions, they just are quietly happy with their beliefs and still respect their friends and family who remain with religious faith..

 

They can certainly try that next year. But, unsurprisingly, the group that lost their special perks are trying to get them back:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/12/13/2-religious-groups-competing-for-holiday-displays-in-santa-monica/

Upset that the Christian displays lost their 14 spaces at Palisades Park this year, the Santa Monica Nativity Committee is asking city officials to the necessary steps to assure the 14 Nativity scenes are allowed on Ocean Avenue in 2012 and forever after.

 

Yep, they want to make sure that they get special treatment.

[Mr. Boyce]

I've found that most self-identified atheists have only rarely studied science and philosophy. Instead, there's a watery, generic "public atheism" which is intellectually insubstantial but, for some, emotionally gratifying.

[shortridge]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...

 

pchadbo: As you can see, the First Amendment does not say that "the Government cannot establish a religion." It says that It says that the law shall not show favor to a particular established religion over another.

 

And in this case, no one is preventing a religious group from worshiping or observing their particular traditions here, as you suggest. The nativity groups do have spaces - just not as many as they want.

 

But it's not the religious-freedom principle in the Constitution that's at issue here. As the city attorney in Santa Monica said, it's a free-speech issue: "Everyone has equal rights to use the streets and parks for expressive activities, irrespective of residency." The atheists followed the rules, and it worked out in their favor. Maybe next year it'll work out in the favor of the churches. Who knows?

 

That's the risk you run when you allow free speech. You're going to end up with speech that the majority doesn't like. But that underlying principle is something all Scouts should understand and respect. Some of us may not like what is being said, but we know people have a right to say it.

 

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57342870/atheists-squeeze-nativity-scenes-from-calif-park/

[qwazse]

No surprise that Christians want special treatment. They spent centuries co-opting this holiday from the pagans (and suppressing some Evangelicals who insist that one day on the Julian calendar not be elevated above any other). Now that they've made the whole thing into a syncretic secular economic engine that no idol-fashioner could ever have imagined, and demand a token of respect for their success, every marginalized group wants in on the action!

 

Well boo hoo! Get your own day.

 

Now if the atheists want to organize a unified display around some prominent date (say Voltaire's birthday, or the anniversary of the invention of TV) that motivates folks to go out and consume big bucks and spurs people to part with their hoarded dimes (or credits) to grease or economy, more power to them. It's the American way.

 

Actually I don't mind if they make a play for the 25th, it just seems pathetic.

[moosetracker]

Sorry - Didn't know that you had diffence of "Not believe in God".. Didn't know there were different beliefs in how to "Not believe in God".. Now I have heard of atheist & agnostic, but I thought agnostic was not an atheist because they just were not sure if there is or is not a God.. So sure let the agnostic have a plot (if they want one, I think this group would stay out of the fight..)...

 

Now what is the difference in beliefs of "Not believe in God" seperates the atheists from the new atheists??

 

Upset that the Christian displays lost their 14 spaces at Palisades Park this year, the Santa Monica Nativity Committee is asking city officials to the necessary steps to assure the 14 Nativity scenes are allowed on Ocean Avenue in 2012 and forever after.

 

Sigh!! "Can't we just all get along!!!".. Well the atheists started war.. The religions just have to figure out the right way to engage in this war, or the town will have to find out how to end the war..

 

We just watched some Christmas special, in which some poor athiest Scrooge was doing something similar.. Didn't want a park spot, but didn't want the Christians to put up a nativity.. Along came a lawyer who said that they had to make a choice, or no nativity, or opening the park for other holiday displays.. Christians said "No.. No.. Only nativity".. Hubby & I just looked at each other and shook are heads.. What was wrong with allowing a jewish display?? Or a Santa display?? Or some other winter wonderland display?? (Of course we were not thinking at the time of a athiest display of mock and ridicule and hate..).. Well the church won and scrooge lost.. Basically it was discovered Scrooge was very very poor, lost all his money.. So the church folk came with gifts and melted the Scrooges heart.. And he dropped his protests, and even helped put up the nativity set.. And now Merlyn is gagging.. Well hubby and I at the end of the show still sat there and said, "What's wrong with allowing other displays???"

 

So Merlyn, are you a "Bah.. Humbug.." atheist.. or a "Happy Holiday" atheist???

[qwazse]

MT:

What was wrong with allowing a Jewish display??

Not always on (and usually finished by) the 25th.

Or a Santa display??

St. Nicolas day is the 8th.

Or some other winter wonderland display??

Sure, how about Jan 2nd - Feb 13th? I don't think Orthodox Christians would mind -- they usually don't insist on displays in public squares on Jan 6th.

 

The counter question: Why insist that every day/season that is special to one religion be turned into a pantheon?

 

P.S.- In the show you were watching, did the characters actually disallow a menorah? That would be funny since the historical context of any Christ narrative is necessarily post Maccabees! (No temple, no lampstand. No lampstand, no restoration. No restoration, no point announcing a new king.)

 

 

[packsaddle]

I can't speak for Merlyn but as I gaze upon all this 'much ado about nothing' I tend to side with the 'Bah Humbug' approach of shutting it all down.

Someone please remind me of how the decision was made to assign the 25th as the date anyway. Yes, I know it came from other beliefs (like the Saturnalia) but why that particular myth (and date)? Why not some other myth (and date) to co-opt?

 

Not that I mind one way or the other, it would be interesting to see it celebrated the way it was originally with drunken orgies and singing naked in the street. Though I could do without the human sacrifice.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Moosetracker writes:

Now what is the difference in beliefs of "Not believe in God" seperates the atheists from the new atheists??

 

Supposedly, the "new atheists" are not afraid of speaking out, while the (old) atheists aren't as uppity, or something.

 

In any case, it doesn't justify limiting Person B's free speech opportunities just because they have similar views to Person A, who has already won a spot.

 

Well the atheists started war..

 

I would say the Christians started it. The background is a bit more complicated:

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-los-angeles/atheist-displays-displace-nativity-scenes-santa-monica-park-this-xmas

...

"For most of the nearly 60 years the city has provided these public spaces for holiday displays, they were occupied almost exclusively by church groups and religious associations and, mostly, nativity scenes. This reporter remembers walking through the block-long display area in the park many times over the years and seeing nothing but Christian religious displays. In recent years, Santa Monica provided a single display space to nonbelievers. Often, these were utilized by the Los Angeles-based Atheists United though AU president Bobbie Kirkhart told this reporter that every banner or display the group put up was either stolen or vandalized before the holidays were over."

...

"For many years, atheists were excluded from the city-subsidized displays. Then they were allowed one little spot. Now, finally, atheists have an equal chance for a space just like everyone else. Those Christians who believe their god is concerned about about such things might take note of the extraordinary luck the atheist lottery winners have enjoyed."

 

So Merlyn, are you a "Bah.. Humbug.." atheist.. or a "Happy Holiday" atheist???

 

I'm a Festivus and Momentous person (Dec. 25 is the day to celebrate Momentum. Because Dec. 25 is Isaac Newton's birthday. So a Newton Day = Kg * m / s^2 * 86400 s = 86400 Kg * m / s, which is momentum)

[qwazse]

Pack. It was a Papal thing. (Might makes right, basically.) There are Christians (strident anti-Catholics) who oppose a set date. Then in the U.S. capitalists seized it as a money-maker.

 

The Nativity scene was the invention of St. Francis of Assisi. His parishioners didn't have much to offer for Christmas besides themselves, so he said "OK, That works." Then, folks who saw it said "Hey I could make a carving of that so I don't have to go out in the cold and stare at these peasants ..." Then, folks looked at the carvings and said, "Hey, we could dress up like peasants and do that!"

 

[source: qwazse's crassly redacted history of the world.]