2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[Lisabob 13]

I see no reason to close the thread. Discussion so far has been remarkably courteous with just an exception or two. If people determine that the poster is a "troll" then people will likely just stop responding. In the meantime, this is a topic that gets discussed from time to time here in the issues & politics forum and I see no reason to shy away from it.

 

As for me: I don't think he's a troll. He sounds to me like a lot of late teen/early 20 folks who fervently believe something to be true, and who are sure they can convince the world of it through sheer force of will. And to that, all I can say is that such a strategy rarely works.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

Lisa, yes I can agree with what you say. I still challenge him to answer my questions.

[Tuoc Syag 10]

@packsaddle: Perhaps this is something that cannot be resolved, nor does anybody need to waste time on arguing anything. My motivation for starting this thread was to resolve a curiosity of mine, admittedly a selfish cause. I know very well that many scouters have voiced their heated opinions on this type of subject many times already, but many times, they speak on gays and atheists in general, and I had always wondered how predisposed a judgment of character is just based on someone's beliefs or sexual orientation. I wanted to see how people's opinions change after thinking initially that the person in question was of fine character. I have gotten to see that reaction, so if you feel you must remove the thread, go ahead, but I welcome anyone "wasting time" with this to leave and anyone who wants to throw down an opinion to feel free.

 

@Several Others: When I gave the scout sign and promised my Duty to God I was shallowly going through the motions I needed to continue spending time with friends, gaining leadership experience, and taking such great character development (arguably, apparently) out of the program. That I'll admit. But part of my belief is that I can be of good morals without being told right and wrong from an arbitrary source. I believe morality is subjective (which itself is a paradox), and that I should apply logic, rationale, and empathy to determine the best decisions to make. I felt that I was not violating any of my own morals by being insincere about one part of a promise I otherwise agreed with and lived up to. After all, I was never explicitly asked "Do you believe in a god?"

 

As an analogy, some of those who call themselves devout Christians occasionally miss a church service, and many of them don't live up to ALL of the teachings of the bible verbatim. They might reconcile it that one does not need to be a perfect Christian to be a good Christian. So should I let two shortcomings of another set of laws stop me from following a program I considered to otherwise be a great program, one to which I attribute much of my maturity and character growth. It would be like a 95% Christian feeling like he should abandon his religion just because he hasn't followed the religion perfectly.

[packsaddle 753]

Lisa, good call.

[Tuoc Syag 10]

Lisa, I'd just like to reach an understanding of what we mean. I can take your idea that I am pushing my beliefs on everyone in two ways. I am not trying to convince anyone that atheism is the right thing to believe. Every person has his own belief of what's right. However, I would like people to understand that religious adherence is an example of one group's interpretation of "right" that is pushed on others by sheer force of will. And in a sense, that in itself pushes a belief, but one of inclusion and not rigidity.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Tuoc, its not a question of pushing beliefs on others as far as I see it. I will try to restate what I said before Merlyn corrected me. You can be an atheist, that is your right.

 

The BSA is a private organization that has the right to decide membership requirements, that is court tested and approved.

 

The BSA has set its membership requirements to exclude gays and Atheists. That is its' member's right. Whether or not you see this as "correct" is of little consequence

 

Will the BSA changes its membership requirements? Maybe, I don't know, but I do know that being Gay and Atheist and asking why you can't be a BSA member is like going into a Vegan Snack shop and telling the owner he could do so much better if he just had a small deli counter selling pastrami and prosciutto wraps.

 

The Organization says no Gays or Atheists,we can do that. No amount of logic about how good a role model you are changes that.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Scoutfish 16]

Tuoc Syag,

 

First I am going to defend you based on my own principles:

 

 

"and who are sure they can convince the world of it through sheer force of will. And to that, all I can say is that such a strategy rarely works. "

 

Reminds me of the early settlers who tarred, feathersd and publicly beat people in public for not being "proper Christains. Remember the stocks in town squares?

 

Also reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials where so many people were killed because of their "wrong" beliefs. And the only proof was somebody accussed them.

 

Indians were masacred under this line of thinking. They were labeled Savages and devils because they did not think our way.

 

 

"What exactly were you thinking for the five years between ages 13 and 18 when you held up your right hand and promised to do your "duty to God"?"

 

Can't be much different than scout leaders who sign their application and promise to abide by all of BSA's rules, regulations , and code of conduct.....

 

then add to requirements, change rules and procedures, are in adult lead troops, who are cub leaders for the benefit of their own child only, who fight and bicker over who is most moral and who is the most Christian.

 

 

 

Now Tuoc Syag, I do have to ask though,and it is an honest question..... Why be a part of a groupthat doesn't agree with your line of thinking or your beliefs? Even saying you like the leadership experience you get from it, that experience is based on bexperience gained froma group who doies not think like you or allow your type of thinking or beliefs.

 

Not saying either line of thought isright or wrong, just saying they are corrosive to each other.

 

 

Personally, I have no issue with your moral character at all.

 

But stop and ask yourself this: What if one of your friends just up and says :"Hey, I have lied to you all trhe time we have been friends. I do not share the same beliefs as you and do not feel the same way as you, I just used you because you got me acces to ( just an example ,okay?) the school audio/video room. "

 

Then that friend asks you if you think he is ideal friend material.

 

You get what I am saying? You are telling somebody you basically been lying or cheating them of the truth, then ask if they trust you. You can't realistically expect to get praise or a pat on the back.

 

And let me say this: I am not anti gay, nor am I anti athiest.

[Tuoc Syag 10]

OGE, I think you've hit the nail on the head. "No amount of logic about how good a role model you are changes that." That brings me to another one of my motives for this whole thing. As much as I wish otherwise, I understand the fact that the BSA is a private organization and can discriminate as it wants, and it even was willing to lose public funding to uphold that right. But a lot of opinions I had read in the past as for the reasons that the BSA has its no gay policy had nothing to do with concerns over sleeping arrangements and the like, but instead that it is impossible to be a role model with morals if one is gay and/or atheist. OGE's comment really defies that opinion. My initial question was not about whether or not I am/should be allowed in scouting, as that is an objective rule. Instead, those people who answered Yes to the first question and No to the second seem to agree that being a good role model depends on whether or not I am gay/atheist. I understand that the BSA can discriminate all it wants, but if the core reason is that gays/atheists can't be good role models, I think its reasoning needs a second look.

[packsaddle 753]

Tuoc Syag, your response:

"My initial question was not about whether or not I am/should be allowed in scouting, as that is an objective rule. Instead, those people who answered Yes to the first question and No to the second seem to agree that being a good role model depends on whether or not I am gay/atheist. I understand that the BSA can discriminate all it wants, but if the core reason is that gays/atheists can't be good role models, I think its reasoning needs a second look."

 

is more along the lines for what I was hoping for in your answer to my questions. Rather than starting this just to poke a stick in someone's eye, you expressed a desire for a 'second look' at the reason for BSA policy to be what it is. However, what I see missing from your post IS the 'second look'.

I hope you already understand that most of us have already hashed through this topic and have largely failed to find that 'second look', at least in a substantive way that changes the current policy.

What I would hope for in a constructive dialog is that YOU will provide something new for that 'second look' so the rest of us can benefit from your insight.

So......????? How about providing your own analysis of the reason for BSA policy to be what it is as well as any flaws in the policy that you see?

[moosetracker 132]

Touc I think you may have it wrong why people answered No to the second question.. Now my original answer of Yes to everything was before some of their responses, but reading them and more from you about why you are still in Boy Scouts, I will state to #1 Yes and to #2 50-50

 

Not because you are gay/atheist.. But because you are not being true to yourself and to a community of friends you are with a good percentage of time.. Because you admit to using your friends for selfish personal gain..

But I will say still 50-50 because if you have been open with some of your friends in the troop, I guarantee that they are not the only ones who know. It is just human nature that other have learned the truth from your friends along the way, it is too good a secret to not let slip to others who they personally trust within the group, and those people have passed it on to others they trust.. Yet no one in your unit has called you out on it, everyone is pretending to turn a blind eye.. The Hogans Heros .. Sgt Shultz phrase of I know, Nothing.. Absolutly Nothing.. is the mode your unit is in right now.. Why??? Have you asked yourself that question? Most likely because everyone cares for you that deeply as to protect your secret.. They care because on the surface at least you are someone who is a good role model whom the respect, and even with these secrets 90% of you is still of good character unless you are (I can't think of the word, but of some psychological disorder that you can totally show a false front while being totally selfish).. There is alot of good charactor in you even though you have a self-centered streak.. Many of us are not 100% altruistic, even for the reasons we are in scouting or why our children are in scouting.. We see personal benefit, but most would not go so far as to say we are "using" our fellow scouters for personal gain..

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Oh, and as an aside, hard as it is for me to remember at times, I am not the only moderator on this forum. Modertors can be spotted by the * after "senior forum member".

 

There are times when I act like I am the only moderator and I do get email about that. For this one, my first instinct was to close it, instead I moved it from the Program Section to Politics and Issues. Packsaddle (not his real name) and I have discussed this thread, Pack is taking control of it,

 

I will not close this thread

 

PS Old Grey Eagle is not my real name either(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Lisabob 13]

Tuoc, I didn't say you were pushing your beliefs on anyone. I do think you expect that you can get people to change their minds and see things your way if you just apply enough logic.

 

Regardless of whether I personally agree or disagree (with you, or with the current BSA membership policy), I do not think very many people are going to change their minds based on what you have written. Nor do I think your initial post was effective. People tend to respond to posts like that as they would to a poke with a sharp stick - hence the initial "he's a troll" reactions.

 

I am going to say this once, and I don't mean it as harshly as it will likely come across, but here it is: you sound like a teenager who is convinced that his parents just don't understand as much as he does about the world, and if they just have their eyes opened then they'll acquiesce to the teen's desires.

 

And now, I'm done.

 

 

[nldscout 18]

While some of the others on here may be polite and want to carry on this discussion, all I want from you is your name and council, so I can see to it you sorry lieing self can be booted out of scouting forever.

 

You obviously don't give a damn about following the rules, you have constatly lied to your leaders, and staff.

 

So for once in your sorry life, admit that your not an Eagle scout and tell me your name.

[BDPT00 41]

Interesting, emotionally charged duscussion. Regarding the troll issue, I don't believe for a second that the writer is a teenager, nor do I understand the purpose of the original posting ... other than to provoke us. That's been accomplished, so congratulations.

Let's assume for just a minute that this is true. Is it doing any of us any good (including the poster)? Is there any reason not to close it?

BDPT00

[John-in-KC 311]

The Judge is upset.

 

Actually, so am I.

 

I'll leave the gay issue on the table.

 

I'm far more upset that you admitted you shallowly went through the program in walking the trail.

 

Scouters are men and women who have chosen to equip the generations behind them to take their station in life. We do that accepting full-well the elements of the Scout Oath and Law in our own lives. No point is more or less important than any other, but our role is to live up to all 12.

 

Scouting is not a values buffet. IMO, accept the full ethic of Scouting, and join us on the trail, or refuse the ethic ... and walk your own trail.

 

Godspeed.