Lisabob 13 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I'm always surprised when any one side in a political contest or a sporting contest feels the need to lay claim to a higher power as their rationale for why they deserve to win (or the other guy deserves not to win). For one thing it makes some very human and very arrogant assumptions about the nature of their deity, that he/she/it would even notice, let alone deign to intervene in, such a petty matter. For another, in order to make sense it requires an assumption that the opposition in somehow unworthy, or perhaps downright ungodly. And then too, it becomes rather problematic when the "right" side loses. How, for example, are we to understand McCain/Palin's possible defeat in a few weeks? From one side of things we're hearing that they and their supporters have the ear of a higher power. We're hearing about prayers that voters will be guided to vote as "He" would want. We're hearing about how the candidates seek to be "blessed" with a win. And so, if McCain loses, does that mean the opponent was more in touch with their higher power? Or that McCain is not one of the favored after all? Or that McCain's supporters simply didn't pray hard enough? Or that voters who voted for Obama were, in fact, being guided by that same higher power to do just that? Or that the forces of evil overwhelmed the forces of good? I just can't see it. If your guy wins and you invoke a higher power to explain why, then what does it mean if your guy loses, after having invoked that same higher power? Link to post Share on other sites
vol_scouter 365 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Lisabob, My beliefs are such that I believe that God does pay attention to such things as elections. In the Old Testament somewhere is a verse describing that all leaders come to power with His knowledge. That bothers me because why would a Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, or Stalin be allowed to come to power? I do not pretend to understand everything. At the same time, I agree with you about which candidates are who God would find most favorable. We do not know the mind of God and must ultimately prayer that his will be done. We do not know what is in the hearts of these two candidates. I believe that McCain is the better man by a long shot but I do not know. I will not pray that a particular candidate wins but rather the best for the country. Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The Bible teaches that God notices even when a sparrow falls, that He even counts the hairs on our heads. If that is true, then I find it hard to believe He wouldn't notice something as monumental as this election. I believe God is involved in everything on earth. He invented it all, so why shouldn't He be? I think it is presumptuous for anyone to say they know exactly what God thinks. I may want McCain to win because I think he will govern better, so I will pray that he wins the election. That does not mean I think God is on McCain's side. I have been taught we should pray, and pray often. We should ask for what we want, but should utlimately ask that God's will be done, and that we have the ability to live with His will. While I think Obama is the wrong choice for a number of reasons, I am not worrying about this election. The Bible also teaches that we should not worry about things we cannot control, that we should trust the Lord with all our heart. As a Christian, I should recognize that whoever wins does so because it is God's will. That does not mean things will be a bed of roses, no matter who wins. Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Dont' forget that the slogan of the Schutzstaffel was "Gott mit uns." Evidently God supports all sides in a conflict. Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I'm no theologian. I didn't spent the night in a Holiday Inn. Looking back in history it does seem that a lot of times a lot of sides have craved Divine Intervention. Sad thing is that when the side isn't the winning side/team they feel a need to point the finger. Very often they look for reasons why the Lord let them down. "We didn't win because we don't lead a good enough life" Divine Intervention seems to have a way of becoming divine retribution when things don't go the way that some people want. Eamonn Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 There is this thing called "free will", and sometimes its a bite Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Or maybe the 'Lord' has a warped sense of humor. Maybe a mean streak. Kind of like human beings. Who might have to 'imagine' the characteristics of the 'Lord'. Could be. Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I learned this as a round, over 30 years ago: Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His Righteousness. And all these things shall be added unto you, Al-leu-Alleluia. Source is Matthew 6:33 (in context Matt 6:28-34): "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Gold Winger nailed it. Everyone tries to claim God for their own, Lisa. Each of us, individually, has to pray and discuss with God where they see His will, and then act on it. With politicians, I look at actions and positions, not words and claims. Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 It was this very train of thought that lead to my apostatic epiphany at age 13. Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1616 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 With God On Our Side Oh my name it is nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I's taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side. Oh the history books tell it They tell it so well The cavalries charged The Indians fell The cavalries charged The Indians died Oh the country was young With God on its side. Oh the Spanish-American War had its day And the Civil War too Was soon laid away And the names of the heroes I's made to memorize With guns in their hands And God on their side. Oh the First World War, boys It closed out its fate The reason for fighting I never got straight But I learned to accept it Accept it with pride For you don't count the dead When God's on your side. When the Second World War Came to an end We forgave the Germans And we were friends Though they murdered six million In the ovens they fried The Germans now too Have God on their side. I've learned to hate Russians All through my whole life If another war starts It's them we must fight To hate them and fear them To run and to hide And accept it all bravely With God on my side. But now we got weapons Of the chemical dust If fire them we're forced to Then fire them we must One push of the button And a shot the world wide And you never ask questions When God's on your side. In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side. So now as I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor If God's on our side He'll stop the next war. ==Bob Dylan== Link to post Share on other sites
Narraticong 15 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Interesting discussion... I think OGE put it best in a way those of us with simple faith can understand. God created us all with Free Will. Yes, He knows every detail of everything that will ever happen. The term is omniscient (all knowing). But that darned old Free Will lets us make the call. And sometimes we mess it up despite our pleas to the Lord. The Lord does ALWAYS answer our prayers. The problem lies in the fact that we don't always hear back what we think we should hear. Sometimes the answer is very quiet and very subtle. If we do not hear it, it is ALWAYS because we are not paying attention. And yes, "Gott mit uns" is true. God is with our enemies just as he is with us. They too, are his Creation. He loves them dearly. But he is gravely disappointed with their sins just as he is with ours. It is only because of the Son that the Father does not see those sins and considers our slate clean. No, I don't think God takes sides in any conflict. I don't think he cares really what happens to any man-created nation. I think he cares only what is in the heart of each and every one of his children. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Boyce 13 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I would think it is a statement of one's sincerity. The candidate really IS trying to come up with principled ideas. Either party's candidate can invoke this hope for divine meaningfulness. Of course, elements in each party will be more or less responsive to it. It is one of the great blunders of the Democratic Party that they shun religious values (other than bland "tolerance") and head to the high hills whenever someone proposes that personal behaviors (especially having to do with sex) be restricted. But whenever a candidate makes this assertion without actually meaning it, this is a disgrace. Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Real tolerance is far from "bland". It is far more difficult than most people suspect. It's much easier to invoke revealed Truth and traditional protocols. Link to post Share on other sites
Narraticong 15 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 "Tolerance" can sometimes be a lack of personal committment. The "I'm OK, You're OK" attitude is just that. By human nature we are weak and can not live up to our alleged (particularly Christian) beliefs. So, it becomes easier to "change" our religion to be more tolerant. If you do not have the strength or desire to live by the standards of your religion, then either get another one, or have none at all. That would be something I would respect you for. We have become afraid that by standing firm in what we believe is right, we might hurt someone else's feelings. What some people today perceive as "tolerance" is in actuality a demand for "acceptance". In America, you have an obligation to "tolerate" my conservative Christian beliefs and my right to practice and espouse them. But you do not have to "accept" them as being valid, or correct. In turn, I will "tolerate" the rights of liberal Americans to believe whatever they wish. But I am in no way obligated to "accept" them as being valid, or correct. Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 "Religious tolerance is not religious indifference. It is valuing the right of another person to hold beliefs that you know to be wrong." Link to post Share on other sites
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