The atheists thing again

[SSScout 1615]

The DRP as presently stated and used is contradicted by BSAs courting of Buddhist Scouts, Confuscian Scouts and others (those are just the ones I'm aware of).

 

The promise that we ask Cubs and Boys Scouts to state, speaks of ones "duty to God". First, I would suggest that promising to do ones best here naturally makes the DRP unnecessary.I would then postulate that that duty is not mine to judge, but Gods. I would perhaps speak with the boy about how he sees his duty and how he might be striving to meet it, but it is not my duty to judge if he really is doing "his duty", only God can do that. His method of prayer (or not), his style of devotion (or lack of it), is between him, his family, his religious leaders (if any) and his rock,er, god. We are not talking about the boys duty to me, after all.

 

Anyone watching the PBS special about the three big religions?

 

As for the so called Pledge... When I do Scoutcraft at our CSDC, and we get to Flag Courtesy, I always ask the boys if they can think of a reason someone might not say the PoA?

They mention "he might be a terrorist", "maybe he can't talk". RARELY has anyone mentioned the two main reasons: being of another nationality and having religious objections. I suggest to them they approach that person later and politely ask about it, they might have an interesting conversation. I have never had a listening adult comment about this.

 

As a Friend (Quaker), I try to uphold Jesus' admonition to "swear not at all" and our faiths advice to "avoid judicial oaths and loyalty oaths" and avoid worship of "things "(idolotry)(this would include materialism. Another time...). So promising to be loyal to a piece of cloth is hard, we don't do it. This little denial of action we share with many other faiths, too. The Friend Scouts I know all learned the PoA, it is a requirement, and they recite it for the requirement, but not ceremonially.

 

Now, as to athiests... I feel sad for them. But they are, in essence, doing what they see as their duty to God by CHOOSING NOT to believe in him/her/it. I see it simply as that. For BSA to REQUIRE a professed belief in a diety(s), makes it very hard to then say that BSA is non-discriminatory.

 

By the way, Athiests have a church, if in all respects but name, in the various "Ethical Societies" around the country. Look'em up. (a worship of nogod. ummm...)

 

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer cherce.

 

Now, as I mentioned in another thread, as a Chaplain at the Jamboree, one of my duties was talking to Scouts as they came to the "Relationship" tent. I met maybe 10 or 12 boys among the many others who had no professed faith and so I got to speak to them for them to earn their "DtG" rocker. With 30 other Chaps doing the same thing thru the week that calculates to about 300 Scouts without a faith. The ones I spoke to were 'not sure' about the God thing. Does that mean they should be ejected from our brotherhood outright? Not to my mind.

 

YiS in spite of...

 

 

[Gonzo1 10]

Merlyn,

You said:

... removing public school charters wasn't an attempt to "force" the BSA to do anything; it was to force public schools to disassociate themselves from a program that required those schools to practice religious discrimination.

 

Well, here's the First Ammendment:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

All of the separation of church and state people make this false claim, it also says "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" BUT, we can't have the "free excercise thereof" can we? There is no "separation of church and state".

 

I heard on Paul Harvey yesterday that 91 % of the US says they are Christian, only 3% said they are atheist. So, please don't waste my time over a small percentage of the 3% trying to get into BSA.

3 percent? C'mon, move onto something else.

 

Freedom of religion doesn't guarantee you or anybody freedom from it. Don't like seeing a cross, look away.

 

Want scouting? check out www.spiralscouts.org

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Gonzo1, not having public schools practice religious discrimination does not prevent you from exercising your first amendment rights in the least. And apparently, you think people who make up 3% of the population aren't "entitled" to civil rights. Sorry, that's not how it works.

 

By the way, if you want to look at a cross, build it with your own money and put it on your own property. You might notice the lack of lawsuits against such crosses.

[Gonzo1 10]

It's not the public school that discriinates against atheists.

Could atheists have a group meeting in a school, probably so, maybe now, more than ever.

 

You're civils rights are there for you. But, why is it that the majority must bend over backward for 3% or the populations so you won't be offended?

 

I'm OK with a city spending a few buck for a cross, menora, star of David, etc.

 

Remember, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, you think it's OK our civil rights to "peacably assemble" should be trampled too.

 

The minority loses, you didn't get physically hurt, you just lose. Your rights remain intact. So do mine, except when someone in the minority might get offended.

[SSScout 1615]

A couple of questions for them what can answer:

1) Was it BSA that "pulled the Charters" or was it the various organizations that resigned them?

2) Were there really any "Public Schools" sponsoring Scout units, or was it the PTAs and such? I can't see Thomas Jefferson Union Elementary School of Blahblah City sponsoring a Scout unit. The PTA could. And the leadership of that august group might have taken umbrage at the DRP.

3) Since BSA is a voluntary organization, and no one HAS to join, why is it so important that certain people WANT to join? Hypocracy not withstanding...

 

Hello Pack.

[evmori 11]

Right on the money Gonzo! There is nothing wrong with a public school chartering a BSA unit. By doing so isn't promoting discrimination or any religion.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Gonzo1, the BSA says the chartering organization "owns and operates" the pack or troop, so any public school that charters one "owns and operates" a private club that excludes atheists, so yes, the school IS discriminating against atheists. I also don't see what "bending over backwards" is being done of behalf of atheists -- do you have any actual examples? And I'm not OK with the city spending a few bucks putting up religious symbols. That simply isn't the function of government.

 

SSScout, the ACLU of Illinois pointed out to the BSA that public schools and other government agencies can't charter BSA units:

http://www.aclu-il.org/news/press/2005/03/national_boy_scout_organizatio.shtml

The BSA agreed to recharter them and not charter BSA units to government agencies. At that time, about 9,000 units were chartered by government entities, most of them public schools. Public schools used to rank #1 in chartering cub scout packs back when the BSA kicked the Randall twins out; I guess nobody at the BSA could forsee the obvious problems.

[evmori 11]

And the difference between a public school chartering a BSA unit & sponsoring a Christian Bible study club is what?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

There's no difference Ed, public schools can't run either group. But you've never understood the difference between a school running a private group vs. private groups using school facilities.

[Gonzo1 10]

Merlyn,

 

You said: "I also don't see what "bending over backwards" is being done of behalf of atheists -- do you have any actual examples?"

 

How about all of the schools that can't charter BSA units. That's about 9,000 examples. I'm sure if you had a groupd of atheists who want to use a school gym or meeting room, you could probably get it.

 

How about towns and cities being sued over Christmas trees, the media calling them Holiday Trees so atheists (and other religious minorities) don't get upset.

 

Do you if all of us on this forum lived in Tehran, we would be allowed to have this discussion. If we all believed as we do, SSScout is a Friend, I'm Methodist, others are Catholic, etc, do you think Ahmadinajad (sounds like I'm in a jihad) would allow for Christian displays or Jewish displays so as to not offend the minority? You gotta be nuts. Be glad you live in a country where you're free to choose and believe (or not believe) as you wish! There are countries where christian are murdered for being Christians.

 

The function of government does not include having to deal with silly lawsuits brought by the ACLU either, but our taxpayer dollars have to deal with that too.

 

How can you possibly be hurt by a nativity scene display at Christmas time (the time of year occurring on or about 4 days after the winter solstice) when the rest of the year there's nothing there. Could we say that we honor your nothingness by not having anything there the rest of the year?

 

We the people have the right to peacably assemble. That includes YOU. It will probably be a matter of time before atheism is recognized as a religion.

 

Go ask your local school if your group can meet at the school and let us know what they said. My hope is that because we can't meet there NOW, you can't meet there either. I wish we could meet there.

 

Merlyn, the difference between a school "owning and operating" a BSA unit is that the school principal isn't the scoutmaster or cubmaster, but rather allows the unit to meet there and approves of unit leadership.

 

 

[evmori 11]

So a public school can't (which I think is a bunch of phooey) charter a BSA unit or sponsor an Atheist Support Group. Only problem is schools sponsor all kinds of groups exactly like the BSA yet for some reason, Merlyn, you aren't going after them with the same vigor you are attacking the BSA. Why is that? Oh yeah, I'm not gonna do your research for you on those other discriminatory groups schools sponsor. You can do that yourself.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Gonzo1, you also don't understand the difference between a public school chartering a scout unit vs. a public school allowing a scout unit (or an atheist group) to meet in the school.

 

In the case of a public school chartering a unit, it's a school youth group, just like a school chess club. The school, according to the BSA, selects leaders for the unit, and is expected to exclude atheists. Public schools can't do this. They are expected to exclude atheist students. Public schools can't do this, either.

 

Now, in the case of private groups using school facilities, both a scout pack and an atheist group are on equal footing. Both can use facilities on the same basis.

 

As to the case of cities being sued over christmas trees, I don't think city governments should be in the business of promoting religious holidays. Having the government decide what holidays to promote and what holidays NOT to promote is more along the lines of your Tehran example.

 

And if we're equal Gonzo1, where are there cities putting up signs saying "gods are myths" using public money? Why do you want your religious views promoted by the city but not mine? You want your views paid for with my tax money, but if I want my views promoted, your answer is that I have to do it myself -- only the majority gets to have its religious views promoted by the government.

 

Well, that really isn't how it works in the US. And yes, if you can't meet in your public school, other outside groups can't either. That's what equal treatment means. You can't compare two different schools, because one school might (legally) allow any outside groups, while another school might (legally) allow NO outside groups.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, you neglected to give any concrete examples of such discriminatory groups. Can you list some? If you list groups that aren't school-run groups but are, instead, private groups that meet in public schools on the same basis as any other outside group, I'll berate your mercilessly.

[DanKroh 11]

Gonzo,

 

"How about all of the schools that can't charter BSA units. That's about 9,000 examples. I'm sure if you had a groupd of atheists who want to use a school gym or meeting room, you could probably get it."

 

Actually, the other pack in my town uses the school gym for their meetings without any problem whatsoever (they are chartered by a local church). We had our Pinewood Derby last month in the school cafeteria. Again, we've never been denied access to school grounds on off-school hours for meetings, events, even recruiting.

 

"How about towns and cities being sued over Christmas trees, the media calling them Holiday Trees so atheists (and other religious minorities) don't get upset."

 

Actually, I think it's quite nice of towns to put up all those Yule trees. Would you feel the same way if they put a big pentagram out on the front lawn of city hall?

 

"There are countries where christian are murdered for being Christians."

 

And there are countries where Pagans are murdered for being Pagans. And countries where gays are murdered for being gay. And I mean executed by the government, not just murdered in hate-crimes by individual bigots (because that happens right here in the good ol' U S of A). So what's your point?

 

"We the people have the right to peacably assemble. That includes YOU."

 

Oh, so is it ok with you if my coven holds their May Day ritual at your son's school? On your town hall steps?

 

"It will probably be a matter of time before atheism is recognized as a religion."

 

If so, it will only be over the objection of every athiest I know.

 

"Go ask your local school if your group can meet at the school and let us know what they said. My hope is that because we can't meet there NOW, you can't meet there either. I wish we could meet there."

 

But you (if you mean scout units) can meet there (see beginning of post). Somehow though, I think my coven would still have trouble getting the cafe for a ritual, but maybe I'm wrong. So far, we've been quite content to use the basement of the UU church (if we have to be indoors at all).

 

"the difference between a school "owning and operating" a BSA unit is that the school principal isn't the scoutmaster or cubmaster, but rather allows the unit to meet there and approves of unit leadership."

 

Yes, and if they are required by the BSA to disapprove leaders who are atheists or gay, or to reject the membership applications of boys who are atheists or gay, then they would be breaking the law. THAT is the difference. Meet there all you want. Just don't ask them to enforce the discriminatory policies of the BSA.

[DanKroh 11]

"I heard on Paul Harvey yesterday that 91 % of the US says they are Christian, only 3% said they are atheist. So, please don't waste my time over a small percentage of the 3% trying to get into BSA.

3 percent? C'mon, move onto something else."

 

Hmm, this contradicts what I have seen from the reliable polling data. In 2001, the American Religious Identification Survey showed Christians to make up about 77% of the population (down from 86% in 1990, so if we extrapolate a similar decline to 2007, they would be down to about 73% by now, but that is purely an estimate).

 

According to the same survey, no religion (atheist, agnostics, humanists, etc) made up about 14% of the population in 2001. Again, if we extrapolate from the 1990 figure of 8% and assume steady increase, that would be about 17% in 2007, but that's only an estimate).

 

For reference, those who professed to follow Judaism made up 1.3% in 2001.

 

What's the fastest growing religion in the US, based on percentages, not on raw numbers? Wicca!

 

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_studies/aris.pdf

 

Methinks Paul Harvey was just pulling numbers out of thin air....