Alchohol in Cooking

[evmori 11]

The G2SS has already dealt with this issue and so have we on this forum.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I mainly agree with TwoCubDad here. The cooking sherry, if it is so salty that it is undrinkable, or if it actually contains no alcohol, may not in and of itself violate the rule against "use" of "alcoholic beverages." But it is a road that does not need to be started down. There are other things to eat.

 

I also think that bringing the bottle of non-alcoholic and/or undrinkable cooking sherry may violate the "spirit" of the rule. (Pun intended.) In the factual scenario that was presented, a youth (the quartermaster) saw right away that there was a questionable item being brought on the trip. That suggests that there was a perception, maybe even a reasonable perception, that a bottle of alcoholic beverage was being brought along. I think that if the boys can reasonably perceive that a prohibited item is being brought along, that is as bad as the item itself.

 

Let me illustrate with this hypothetical situation. On a camping trip, I bring a beer bottle, with a "Budweiser" lable, with a cap on it, and liquid in it. The glass is dark so you can't actually see the color of the liquid. I take out the bottle in front of the boys, and drink from it. The liquid in the bottle is water... or to get a closer color, it is iced tea (non-alcoholic.) While still at home, I had emptied out the beer, washed out the bottle, put in the iced tea and stuck the cap back on. Now I am drinking a perfectly acceptable, non-alcoholic beverage. Is that ok?

 

It's not ok, at least I don't think it is ok. Why? Both the boys and adults on the trip "see" me drinking a bottle of beer. The fact that I am not actually drinking beer is almost beside the point. Now, if I drink ten bottles of iced tea in beer bottles, it WILL matter that it is just iced tea. But let's say it's only one. It's still not right because I appear to be drinking beer.

 

Why does the BSA prohibit consumption of alcoholic beverages on Scout trips? Is it because they don't want leaders to become intoxicated? If that is part of the reason, it is a small part. I am not going to get drunk on one or two beers. However, I am going to show the boys that drinking beer is a good thing to do. (And it is a good thing to do, at least it is for me, if it is one or two beers; but I am an adult. It is not a good thing for the boys to do.) And I am going to show them that, even if the liquid in the bottle is iced tea.

 

This question is about something more serious, but I think it is an analogy. If you walk into a bank with what appears to be a gun, but it is a toy gun, and you point it at the teller and say "give me the money or I'll shoot", are you guilty of armed robbery? Even though you did not have an actual weapon in your possession? The answer (at least in most states) is, yes. If the victim reasonably believes that you are armed with a deadly weapon, that is enough. The fact that it was a toy may get a couple (or more) years shaved off your sentence, but it will not change the nature of the crime.

[dan 10]

ksane

IMHO at this point you need to stop worrying about the leaders or parents that sneak off and smoke, and do something about the ones that are smoking in cars with boys in them!

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"I also think that bringing the bottle of non-alcoholic and/or undrinkable cooking sherry may violate the "spirit" of the rule."

 

No, it doesn't violate the spirit of the rule. The rule is not there so that boys won't get the idea that drinking is okay, because drinking is okay and they get that message at home and on TV. BSA may say that the rule is for the message but it isn't.

 

The rule is there because too many Scouters don't understand moderation. A nice cold beer would be very nice to have after a long hike but too many wouldn't stop with one or two and soon they'd be blotto. A glass of bourbon and branch water would be nice while sitting by the fire but too many Scouters would drink half the bottle and need to be carried to their tents.

 

Drunkeness is not a good thing to display in front of children. Heck, it isn't a good thing to be drunk in front of anyone who isn't already drunk themselves.

 

Also, there is the safety issue. How can you be a responsible adult if you are blotto?

 

 

[evmori 11]

Blotto?

 

Is that the same as Three Sheets to the Wind?

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Yes, Ed, "blotto" is the same as three sheets to the wind. I do not think it is the main issue here, however.

 

It would be interesting to see an authoritative statement of the reasons for the policy, and if there is more than one reason, what the primary issue is.

 

When I get home I am going to check my son's handbook and see what is in there about alcohol. I think there was something in there about alcohol even back when I was a boy, riding my dinosaur to troop meetings. If the attitude in the book is the "just say no" approach that I would expect to see there in 2003, then I really would be surprised to learn that the "no alcohol at Scouting activities" rule is unrelated to "role modelling." I'm pretty sure there has to be a connection there.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

From my (yes, it is mine) evil 1962 edition of the Scoutmaster's Handbook:

 

The National Council recommends [emphasis mine] that intoxicating liquors be not used in connection with Scout meetings, and that all Scoutmasters and other officials while on active duty refrain from the use of tobacco, and that those who are accustomed to the use of tobacco do not conceal the fact from the boys, but discuss frankly with them the desirability of refraining from its use until they have attained their full development.

 

From my 1967 (oooo, so evil) Scout Handbook"

Alcohol -- ONe look at a drunken man staggering down the street will convince you that alcohol indeed does slow down mental and bodily functions. Alcohol is avoided by every young person who wants to be in the best of health. It does no good and can do a great deal of harm. It will pay you to stay away from it.

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

Just last night I posted a message referring to Pharisees in the "Whose Troop Is It" thread. Here I go again.

 

Mark 2:23 One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26 how he entered the house of God, when Abi'athar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?" 27 And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath."

 

Alcohol is forbidden at campouts. You might include cooking sherry in the letter of the law. I doubt if it would be considered as such in the spirit of the law. Our job is to train young men in leadership and making ethical choices. I would suggest that the best way to teach them to make ethical choices is not to give them a list of "do nots" so much as teach them the ability to look at a set of circumstances and come to a sound rational judgement based on the merits of the issue. They need to be able to discern that a bottle of wine is off limits and a bottle of cooking sherry is not the same thing. Without a doubt you will teach your 15 year old son not to have sex with his girlfriend, but are you going to teach him to equate kissing her as the same thing because it is sexual too?

[Twocubdad 665]

Well said, NJ.

 

I will add that I was taught that one of the reasons for the alcohol ban is that it is frequently a factor in cased of abuse. A person inclined toward abusing a child is much more likely to do so after getting a little loose on a couple or three drinks. Actually I believe Cordelia talks about this in the YP video.

[SR540Beaver 116]

A little off topic, but that kind of happens all the time here. I have heard on occasion of wine tasting parties as scout fundraisers. Now to me, that is crossing the line. It is relating the scouting movement with the consumption of alcohol. Why would adults hold a fund raising event that can not be attended by the scouts? Isn't the idea of a fundraiser for the boys to earn money and pay their OWN way in scouting?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

"Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it"

 

I don't actually know who said it first, maybe someone does, anyway, check out this thread on the Unit Fundrasing section of the forum.

 

Is wine tasting an appropriate fundraiser?

 

It will save retyping all our opinions again

[scoutldr 732]

OK, here's another twist. What about non-alcoholic malt beverages, such as O'Doulls? Had a parent once bring a cold 6-pack on a camping trip. He could not consume alcohol, due to medications, but Dr said O'D was fine. His argument was:

1. It is "non-alcoholic"

2. It is not "regulated"

3. He own kids are allowed to drink it and he even lets them order it in restaurants (and they serve it)

4. It is no different from my Diet Pepsi, he just prefers the taste.

 

Therefore, I see nothing in the G2SS that would prohibit it.

 

BTW, I think cooking sherry is fine. I am one of those who took a swig straight out of the bottle, and anyone who calls that a "beverage" must be "blotto".

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" Why would adults hold a fund raising event that can not be attended by the scouts? Isn't the idea of a fundraiser for the boys to earn money and pay their OWN way in scouting? "

 

I would think that there are many fund raising events at the Council and National level that are not attended by Scouts.

 

In reality, how much fundraising is really done by the Scouts?

 

In any case, you could dance around it by saying that the Troop wasn't conducting the event, rather the CO is conducting the event to raise money for the troop.

[evmori 11]

NJ,

Lighten up, man! We have discussed this in depth more than once! And we always end up at the same place - agreeing to disagree. Well, at least most of us do.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[NJCubScouter 1389]

kwc says:

 

They need to be able to discern that a bottle of wine is off limits and a bottle of cooking sherry is not the same thing. Without a doubt you will teach your 15 year old son not to have sex with his girlfriend, but are you going to teach him to equate kissing her as the same thing because it is sexual too?

 

I think the second of these sentences reveals a problem with the first, and that is a lack of any distinction between the role of a parent and that of a Scouter. You obviously recognize that the second subject is primarily the role of the parent, but in fact both of them are. I do not think it is within the role of a Scouter to teach boys the difference between a bottle of wine and a bottle of cooking sherry.

 

I can think of another example from my own youth. I remember that sometime during my teenage years, my father said something to me along the lines of "If you ever decide you want to smoke cigarettes, come to me and I will get you cigarettes and we will go out back and smoke." If that sounds like an odd parenting technique, remember that this was 30+ years ago and attitudes are not quite the same as they are now. These days that invitation might qualify my father for a visit from DYFS (the NJ equivalent of child protective services.) But it was clear to me that he was really saying, "Don't smoke." There was perhaps a bit of intimidation involved, plus, if I ever had taken him up on the offer, I know he would have honored it, and used it as an opportunity to point out the negative aspects of what we were doing. I never did start smoking cigarettes, and in fact when he would occasionally smoke a cigarette instead of his usual pipe or cigar, I would tell him he shouldn't be smoking. (I remember him smoking on Scout campouts, how times have changed.)

 

So what is the point, you ask. The point is that what my father did, I do not think would have been appropriate conduct for a Scoutmaster in any era. I think a parent has much more leeway in how the lessons of life should be taught. And to relate this back to the original discussion, I think a parent has every right to venture into the "gray areas" -- offering to smoke with his son, letting his 17-year old son have a sip of wine now and then (yes, he did that too.) But a Scoutmaster does not.