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turkey is a great consideration in these situations. I am not sure that turkey chilli would be my first choice. The combinationof beans and Tryptophan from the turkey could make the campfire scene from Blazing Saddles look pretty tame.

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Rooster, when the Scout Handbook says a Scout respects the beliefs of others, I don't think they are defining "respect" the same way you do. You have mentioned several different definitions, at least one of which I think is correct, but the definition you started out with is much broader (not narrower) than most people define the word.


Specifically, showing "respect" to the beliefs of others does not require that you practice those beliefs. It may mean making "allowances" in some cases, but not all cases. "The needs of the many" and "the needs of the one" need to be kept in balance. (Wink to Star Trek fans.) I think the basic attributes of respect are that you do not make fun of someone who is doing something different, that you do not interfere with what they are doing and that you do not try to change their beliefs. (I realize there might be some debate about that last part, but hopefully not in a Scouting setting.) Rooster, I doubt that you would have a problem with showing respect under that definition.


As for some of your specific examples, dietary restrictions should be fairly easy to accommodate. Others have given examples of how this is done. Obviously you are not required to refrain from eating the pork chop or the hamburger, but if there is a feasible method for providing an alternate meal for the Orthodox Jewish or Hindu Scout, you should do so. Likewise, if you can all eat chicken, great. It's just a matter of being reasonable. (Though I have to tell you, when an Orthodox Jewish Scout is involved, it can't just be any old chicken, it has to be a Kosher chicken. I do not have any statistics on this, but my suspicion would be that the vast majority of Orthodox Jewish Scouts are in units sponsored by their own religious organization and whose membership is overwhelmingly if not exclusively of their own religion. Keeping Kosher is one of the reasons -- it's really really difficult to do so when you are catering (sometimes literally) to some who are and some who aren't as part of the same group. Also keep in mind that most Jews in the U.S. do not keep Kosher -- I line up for the bacon and sausage at my pack's camping trips along with everybody else. As for the 2 or 3 Indian Cub Scouts that have been in our pack, I never noticed whether they were eating the hamburgers and hot dogs or not.)


One other example you gave was the Islamic scout who had to pray seven times a day (though I thought it was five.) I don't really know all of their requirements, but why can't he just find a secluded spot at the campsite, take out his prayer mat and pray? And if you are on a hike, he can do it during meal breaks and rest breaks. And if you have to add an extra break or extend them by a couple of minutes, where's the harm? Obviously, if someone's practice required that they remain stationary for an hour at a time, five times a day, that would be a problem.


By the way, Rooster, I also wanted to comment on this:


If Scouting allowed pagans to become Scouts, would you expect me to respect the belief that trees are deities?


Scouting does. Allow "pagans" to become Scouts, I mean. As you suggest with your tree-as-deity remark, "pagans" do have deities (usually more than one, I think, and I don't think most modern pagans actually worship trees, though I am not an expert), and therefore are not atheists. (I put "pagans" in quotes because some call themselves "Wiccans," some refer to "followers of Earth Religions" and others use the term "Neo-Pagans." I learned all this by plugging the word "pagan" into Yahoo, it's very interesting, at least to me. (I also have a daughter who says she is a Wiccan, but that is a whole other story. Jon Stewart of the "Daily Show" says that if atheists are kids who hate their parents, then Wiccans are teenagers who really hate their parents.)


But whichever branch of "paganism" you are talking about, they seem to all believe in something, and as long as they are willing to say the Scout Oath and Law and pledge to live by them, that is all that Scouting asks

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"Also keep in mind that most Jews in the U.S. do not keep Kosher"


Is there a web site I could check that study out? I personally know many who don't keep kosher 100% (enjoying, say, lobster, etc) but who DO avoid pork at all costs. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown about non-Kosher, semi-Kosher, Kosher for Passover, etc.


(The un-pork people get the shaft a lot when the Pack campout breakfast cook decides to serve 'omelets' and puts chopped ham into ALL the whipped up eggs - thereby making sure no one has a chance at plain scrambled. Even after folks have asked to have some 'unaltered' eggs set aside, specifically to try to avoid trayf!)



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Littlebille, I probably should have made it clear that I was speaking of my own observations, and not from any statistics. I just made a quick search on the Internet and could not find the answer.


All I know is that in a lifetime of having Jewish relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. etc., sometimes in Jewish-majority situations (like the Scout troop I was in as a boy), I would say that less than 10 percent kept Kosher. And by that I meant Kosher 365 days a year, 2 sets of dishes, only eating foods with rabbinical approval, the whole thing. Not just avoiding bread or beer during Passover, not just fasting on Yom Kippur, not just avoiding obvious pork products, shellfish and cheeseburgers. If all of those count as semi-Kosher, obviously the number becomes much larger. I don't think my own family (meaning my parents and brothers) would even count as semi-Kosher, although my parents did follow some "food traditions" handed down to them by their own parents, who were probably only "semi-Kosher" themselves. When we were growing up, we ate bacon and sometimes shrimp. I think we had ham sometimes as well. On the other hand, I never saw a pork chop or a pork roast until I started dating my wife (who is Catholic.) We did not worry about having meat and dairy at the same meal, though one of my grandmothers did sometimes lecture me about cheeseburgers (and also about Christian women, but she obviously was not successful in either case.)

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Understood. Keeping strictly orthodox - what a challenge, I suppose for any faith!


I gotta think that somewhere evolving pilpul will eventually lift the ban on pork (properly raised, butchered and cooked, I doubt that it's unclean as originally perceived) while maintaining the ban on shellfish as we further pollute the seas and various 'blooms' impact those species. Still, since pork was one of the tests during the Inquisition and in Nazi Germany, I think it has taken on a greater symbolism for some...



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You could be my brother-in-law! Jewish guy (law degree) with two brothers. He married my (non-practicing) Catholic sister. And I thought that arrangement was rather unusual. Do all Jewish guys find Catholic girls to be attractive? ;) Or, was it an act of rebellion? :)


By the way, if you want to see a movie that will make you laugh your *** off. Go see "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". You might find some things in there that you can relate to.

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  • 1 month later...

Rooster 7 wrote in response to my comments:


""Denver Jim" I find your remarks to be without much forethought. In the name of religious tolerance, you criticize people who debate the validity of evolution. Yet, in your eyes, in order for these same folks to redeem themselves, they must keep their religious viewpoints to themselves. To that, I simply say - Your logic amazes me. You would have made George Orwell proud.


My faith is strong enough to hear the opinion of others. Neither my God, nor my faith, are harmed when others express opinions that oppose mine. If the faith of others is just as real (and not just a pretence to be offended), then one must assume that their faith is just as strong, and their God just as powerful. They should be able to withstand and tolerant my right to express my opinions. Furthermore, should we not agree, my faith and my pride does not compel me to persecute these people. I respect their right to believe as they chose. I am able to tolerant their unbelief.* My faith allows me to respect, and even to befriend, most people. I expect people with different faiths than mine to respect me in the same manner."


Funny, but so far we AGREE completely, Rooster's comments are mine restated. Rooster7 then continued:


"*Now, some folks may take offense to this statement. To them I ask - Does your faith represent what you believe to be true about God and the world? Or perhaps it's merely a moral code or something that you consider to be a part of your culture? If it's the former, then you should not take offense. If you know the truth and I don't, then pity medon't be "offended". If it's the latter, perhaps you take offense because you do not want to confront another truthyou have no real faith. You don't know God."


Now we don't agree. Re-read my comment. I never said one word about her beliefs. She can believe as she pleases, and so do I, and for that matter so does rooster. But my comment was directed ONLY at the contempt and close-mindedness of the lady's comments. I was criticizing the biggotry, not her beliefs. If anyone thought otherwise besides Rooster7, then to Rooster and all those who thought so, "I apologize".





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  • 9 years later...

On this 203rd anniversary of Darwin's birthday, I'd like to celebrate this old thread (it's a really fun read) and add the observation that after 10 years, evolution must operate on this forum...very slowly.


AND I'll also note how much I miss some of the people in it who don't post any more. Littlebillie, evmori, tjhammer, rooster7, firstpusk (I was always a little nervous about that moniker)...I hope you guys are well. Happy Darwin Day!

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I don't remember the thread so much as I remember some comment that someone writes and in that case I remember both the comment and who wrote it. Then it's a simple matter to do the search. The thread will usually reveal itself after that. Rooster7 was prolific so his searches take a little more effort. For quite a while I just stood back and read these things. Then....eventually I got sucked in just like all the rest of us...lol.


P.S. I was half hoping this would bring Ed out of 'retirement' or whatever dark place he escaped to. We'll see....

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