Scoutmaster Approval of MB

[vogelb]

Under what circumsatnces can a Scoutmaster withold approval for a scout to work on a merit badge? The Guide to Advancement states that any registered scout may work on any merit badge at any time as long has he has the approval of his unit leader. What reason should a unit leader withhold approval?

[moosetracker]

Well, a scoutmaster may want the scout to wait to do a difficult merit badge until he is old enough to understand example a 10 or 11 year old may not be old enough to really understand Citizen & the World, or Environmental Science..

 

We had a Scout master who would only allow a scout to have up to 10 meritbadges he was actively working on at the time..

 

Not denying a merit badge, but still regualiting (or being the gatekeeper) is that a SM may assign a specific MBC, or at least deny a parent from being the MBC the scout can work with..

[OwntheNight]

Scoutmaster prerogative. Moose has some great points. While anybody can be a MBC for any Merit Badge. Sometimes the SM can be the gatekeeper to the MBC list and provide direction to the boy to pick out a MBC. " Hey, Johnny Scout, so you want to start your Citizenship in the Nation MB, did you realize our CC, MR. X is a senior partner in his law firm and would be glad to help you out with that?"

Do you want the MBC who slept in a national hotel chain, teaching aviation MB, or do you want the pilot who's logged countless hours in the air, teaching it?

 

In our neck of the woods, we have a lot of small businesses that cater to all different types of activities for kids (IE, Lego Camp, rocket camp, etc) There is one that caters to the Cooking MB and even offers a class on it at a cost. Our SM would not sign off on that, because he wants the boys to learn how to cook on camp outs, because it's practical experience, not a one time class.

 

Ultimately, the SM is responsible for providing the best program the boys choose.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, vogelb, here's some of da ones I've seen. Don't necessarily agree with 'em all, mind you, but I think da SM's in each case were doin' their best.

 

Not allowing certain badges offered at summer camp, because those badges really couldn't honestly be completed at camp or because da quality of counseling at camp was poor.

 

Not allowing certain badges, or any badges, offered at one-day Merit Badge Events. Again, because of quality.

 

Not allowing a young scout whose eyes were bigger than his ability from pursuing a badge that would clearly result in disappointment. Those are generally da physically challenging badges that require some size and strength - Shotgun, Whitewater, etc.

 

Not allowing some younger scouts who had difficulties at school to pursue one of the more complex book-work MBs like Citizenship in the World (often because mom or dad was pushing "required" badges).

 

Not allowing MBs to be done with mom or dad when other counselors were available.

 

Not allowing use of a counselor who the troop felt didn't do an adequate job, or who was not youth protection screened/trained by the Chartered Organization.

 

Holding off a boy for a few months in order to put together a small group of boys to pursue a badge together or put together a "class" for the badge.

 

Not allowing a boy to pursue a badge for disciplinary reasons (as in "you haven't demonstrated the ability to work independently without causing trouble, and until you do I can't recommend you to a counselor because it isn't fair to the counselor or other boys).

 

Not allowing a boy to pursue another badge because of lack of follow through on previous badges (too many badges still "in the works").

 

Redirecting a boy to a different badge than what he requested. "You should really do Swimming before you work on Canoeing" or "You might consider doing Communications first because it will help you with the requirements for Public Speaking" or "It sounds like you're mostly into fly fishing. Did you know there's a separate MB for Fly Fishing that's different from Fishing?"

 

I'm sure there are many more, that's just what I could think of off da top of my head!

 

Beavah

 

[Jay K]

The main thing is to have the Scoutmaster and the Scout on the same page.

[ASM162]

A scout in our Troop wants to take Swimming MB next year, at camp. When he did the swim test, he passed, but was exhausted, even after the rest while floating on your back portion of the test.

When he asked if he could take it, He was told that we'll see what next year brings.

He really wants to earn the MB, but in reality, he just dosen't have the stamina yet.

[vogelb]

Thanks for the great feedback. What if there is not a physical limitation such as the scout can barely pass the swim test; natural "pre-requisite" such as you should do swimming before canoeing; or there is another serious issue such as the discipline problem cited by Beavah? Should the SM "counsel" the scout who may be taking on more than the SM thinks they can handle or should he simply state "I won't approve you to start on the MB because I do not think you are ready" without further explanation or discussion?

 

By the way, BSA while there may be plenty of reasons for wanting the scout to pursue the MB with someone other than a parent as the conselor, BSA specifically states that a MBC can counsel a relative, including their own son. Some of the other issues brought up seem to be more along the lines of being in agreement with who the counsleor is rather than the scout pursuing the badge. A counsleor who is not Youth Protection trained cannot be a MBC per the BSA.

 

As for teh example cited by Moosetracker: "a scoutmaster may want the scout to wait to do a difficult merit badge until he is old enough to understand example a 10 or 11 year old may not be old enough to really understand Citizen & the World, or Environmental Science" isn't that really up to the MBC to see thatt he scout has completed the requirements to their satisfaction? Now if the SM feels the scout is unable to do that - that is again an opportunity for the SM to counsel the scout and as Jay K stated - get the two of them on the same page.

 

I look forward to your additional thoughts on the matter.

 

[IM_Kathy]

swimming was mentioned by a couple people... I'm the swimming person in my son's troop. Every year just after cross over we do a swim test day and do the rank rescues. Afterwards I talk to each scout and their parent and let them know... 1) they should take swimming MB this coming summer camp 2) they should take the swimming MB but need to work a,b,c 3) when I'm available to help with their swimming.

 

all the boys that I have had pass the swim test then have passed the swim distance for the swimming MB... the biggest thing is that I sit with them and talk about pacing themselves. the biggest key to the swim test and the swimming MB is nothing is timed. find the best boys best stroke that allows them to swim at a steady pace and allows them to get plenty of breathes and just don't stop - slow down if need to, pull head out of water for a few strokes to get more air, but don't stop. The nice thing about the distance for the swimming MB is that throwing in the backstroke in the middle gives them a good chance to slow down with that and get a good breather with their head out of the water.

[qwazse]

vb,

 

In general, always give the boy an objective when you withhold something. For example, "I'd like to see you go a month without hitting a fellow scout before giving you a blue card. Let's set a date to meet next month and review if you're ready for me to give you a counselor's phone number." Or, "I'd like to see you come back with a completed blue card in [name that MB] before I sign the next one. Can you do that in a week or two?"

 

MBC's are precious commodities, and depending on the topic, they may not countenance an undisciplined scout. Other counselors may be perfect for the boy, but you should give them a "head's up". So, you tell the boy "I have a counselor in mind for you, but let me give him a call to see if he's still available. Can you come back to me next week?" Most of the time you'd give the boy an MBC's contact info up front, but if a boy is already spread thin with lots of badges to work on, you may want to talk to the MBC first to get his/her opinion on the matter.

 

It's all about getting everyone on the same page like JK said.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[eisely]

Beavah's points are all well taken. I cannot add to them.

 

I also think it wise for the SM to maintain a side record of MBs each scout is approved to work on. This allows the SM to better monitor progress. When a scout approaches the SM for a blue card, the SM can pull out his record and note that little Johnny is already working on ten other MBs and have an impromptu SM conference to discuss the scout's overall progress and find out where he may need some help.

[moosetracker]

BSA does state a relative can be the MBC.. But they also state the SM is the gatekeeper and so he has a right to deny that, (In other words SM trumps that rule).. Most will allow it if the parent is teaching a large group, rather then have the son have to work alone due to the association.. Some will allow a few, but will put a hault to it if it looks like a suspicious pattern, others will not allow it at all..

 

Remember the Merit Badge system is to get the boy to learn to work with different adults and increase his ability to work with other people outside of his comfort zone.. Having the scout work with only parents or relatives defeats the whole purpose.

 

It is up to the SM to approve the assignment of an MBC, then it is up to the MBC if they want to take on the assignment.. To teach a scout the concept of ideas that need the scout to function at a high school, or to drop the standards for the scout so that he gets off with weaker work because he is incapable of understanding does no one any good, unless the scout is some gifted genius who is functioning at that level..

 

My son started Citizen in the World at an early age, and I think he had a gifted MBC with the patience and time to work with him.. But, about 2 visits into it, he dropped it realizing for himself it was something that was too difficult.. That was one troop that did not put a rule to it..

 

Later we went to a troop that had the rule that you had to do the citizenships in order.. Community first, then Nation, then World.. This gave the scout time to mature naturally before he hit Citizen & the World..

 

Basically the SM can organize it the way they see fit.. They may make blanket rules, or they may give the stop/go sign on each scout individually based on what they know of the merit badge, what they know of the scout and if they feel that they are ready to handle it. The second one may be more fair, but leads to more personal hurt feelings and to more explanation as to why this scout is not mature enough to handle it.. It is sometimes a conflict the SM does not want to get into so they find a relatively fair rule for everyone to follow..

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>"My son started Citizen in the World at an early age, and I think he had a gifted MBC with the patience and time to work with him.. But, about 2 visits into it, he dropped it realizing for himself it was something that was too difficult.. That was one troop that did not put a rule to it.. "<

 

And you had a problem with this - why?

 

Your son was given the opportunity to do something HE wanted to do, when HE wanted to do it. He made a choice. When he decided to go with a partial, and complete the badge at a later time, he made another choice. Helping our SCOUTS learn to make good choices is what we are trying to do. Teaching them that they do not need to make their own choices, but can rely on their SMs to make the decisions for them, is NOT what we are trying to do

 

What merit badges a Scout does, and when, is up to him. Weather he completes the merit badge or not is up to the merit badge counselor. A Scout who fails to successfully complete a merit badge is not scarred for life. He simply completes it at a later date. Or not. It is TOTALLY up to the Scout.

[vogelb]

Amen ScoutNut!! And this is my point in asking the question that started this thread. Unless the merit badge states a prerequisite, the decision to pursue a merit badge is the scout's. The troop that stated you have to complete the Citizenship MB's in order??!! Who determined that there is an order? The alphabetical order that they are listed in? Then I suppose we should start with A... The Guide to Advancement, and the MBC training states that any registered scout may work on any merit badge at any time with the approval of his unit leader. The G2A and MBC training also state that no one may add to or subtract from the requirements. Unless the MB requires the scout to be a certain age, rank, height, weight, hair color, etc. no one, including the SM can add requirements.

 

That said, aside from explaining the requirements and the amount and nature of work invovled in a given merit badge, and understanding that it is the MBC responsibility to sign off that the scout has met the requirements, what valid reason could a SM have for denying a scout approval to pursue a given MB? Most of the reasonis that have been presented, short of the scout's behavior, centered more on the SM not approving of the MBC. Last time I checked, it is the local council that approves MBC and not the unit. Ifg the SM has an issue with a given MBC he may suggest the scout work woth someone else but otherwise the SM should bring this up to the district and or council if the MBC is not up to par.

[BadenP]

vogel

 

You are so correct the SM has an issue with the MBC he should talk to them directly and not put up barriers for you. This is indeed another example of troop or district politics, and the adult leaders in your troop should know better than to drag the youth through their own issues. This might be a good topic for your next roundtable.

[Venividi]

> Helping our SCOUTS learn to make good choices is what we are trying to do.

 

Which is why a good SM doesn't respond to an 11 scout "You want to take the Citizenship in the World Merit Badge? Great! Here's a blue card and the name of the merit badge counselor for you to call. Go gettem' tiger!" Nor does he/she say "Citizenship in the World? Your only 12 years old, we want you to wait until you are 14." Neither helps the scout learn to make good choices.

 

A good SM is more likely to say "You want to take Citizenship in the World? Tell me why.", and then listen. Response is then dependent on what the scout says.

 

Scout says "Because Dad wants me to get it out of the way at Summer Camp." Response: "Here at Troop 5, we have our scouts take this badge with Mr. Bill, because he is a World History teacher, and he does a great job with this badge." Or "Citizenship in the World is a hard one for 11 year old boys. We have found that scouts do best with this badge when they do it at the same time that they take World Civics class in 8th grade. Would you like to do your best? How about if you wait on this one until then?"

 

Scout says "Because its Eagle required." SM might respond with "I see that you have already started on 5 other MBs. Tell me how you are doing on those. (listen). I'ld like to see you finish what you started. How about if you complete one or two of those in the next 3 weeks before you start on another badge. Does that sound reasonable to you?"

Or "Two months ago you volunteered to be troop historian, (librarian, QM, etc.). We've talked several times about that responsibility, and each time you say that you haven't done anything yet. Do you think it is a good idea to start working on a MB like this one, when you don't have the time to do the things that the historian is supposed to do?"

 

Scout says "Because my Mom works for the Secretary of State, and she talks about other countries at the dinner table every night. It sounds interesting to me." SM might then respond with "That's great. I think the MB counselor may even learn something from you." (And then make a note to ask the committee chair to recruit the scout's mom.)

 

I don't agree that giving out a blue card every time a scout asks for it, without providing appropriate guidance and direction is a good way for a scout to learn to make good decisions.