Redo partitial when MB requirements change?

[baschram645]

I know that a scout has until he is 18 to finish a MB. A partial from summer camp is good until 18yrs old. My question is as a counselor what do you do when the requiremnts have changed? Is the scout required to redo the ones that have changed or if #7 was completed, it's completed. In some cases he might have to redo because a requirement that follows will say using the list in #7 make a presentation of your findings to your unit.

 

This hasn't happened to me yet, I'm just wondering if it has to anyone else. Just a hypothetical question.

[HICO_Eagle]

I think you have to use your best judgment on the particular scenario. Was the requirement change significant? Does the Scout still know the material? Some people say a partial from summer camp is good forever. I do spot checks -- if they don't seem to know the material they have two choices: redo it all with me or find another counselor who will accept the partial. My boys (and the troop committee) know that my signature on a blue card means I think the boy has DONE the badge requirements and KNOWS the material. Having said that, I won't get worked up if the changed requirements are functionally the same as the old ones.

[evmori]

Good question. I would say it is up to the counselor.

 

This is what I would do. I would count the requirements completed under the old requirements as completed and go with the new requirements for the unfinished ones.

[kbandit]

As a counselor use caution ex. that number 5 of req. is still the same number in new req.

 

Easy way to compare is to use requirement book old to new.

[packsaddle]

This is actually a nice ethics problem. I resolve it by viewing the agreement to begin a MB as an agreement to the terms, including the requirements.

I take this from the similar situation that exists for most colleges I've been associated with. When a student applies and is accepted into a degree program, all parties are bound by the degree requirements that are detailed in the catalog at that time. I have seen this applied in many cases where the requirements changed later but students still graduated under the old requirements. It is fair to the student and to the institution (although it can cause headaches for advisors who have to keep up with multiple sets of conditions). I also note that to me, this is the conservative approach...conserving the original conditions until the process is completed.

 

I view merit badges the same way. Since the counselor has the final say on whether the boy has completed the requirements or not, it is fair to both the boy and the counselor to apply the requirements that existed when the boy started the process, rather than to change things in mid-course.

 

It IS possible to change things, however, and I do this with my courses occasionally due to sicknesses or bad weather. In every case the changes are unanimously agreed on by the students or else we retain the old conditions.

In the case of a merit badge, if the boy agrees to switch to the new requirements then it is OK if I apply them to him.

 

The ethical situation is similar to a contractual agreement (and here I note that I am only offering my simplistic view of contracts and not a view from legal expertise).

Once a contract is made, it is not fair to either party to change the rules of the contract without their consent, especially if one or both of them object to the changes. Forcing such changes on someone, in my book, amounts to a deception by whoever is forcing it on the parties...in this case it would be the boy and his merit badge advisor who are the victims of the deception.

But this is my simplistic solution. I could be wrong.

 

Here's the thing: I would also apply this to other advancement, including Eagle. And I know that BSA does not apply this approach in those cases.

[artjrk]

From my understanding, this would be the same for Merit Badges and Rank Advancement. Once a scout has started the process, he continues with the original requirements until finished. The thing for Rank is it is only good for that current rank. Work towards a Future rank (ie items for First Class when only Tenderfoot) may or may not count.

[AvidSM]

Per the BSA's National web site: " ... once a Scout has started working on a merit badge, he may stay with the requirements in effect when he started. He will not be required to meet newly introduced changes unless the BSA's National Council places a specific timeline on the implementation of new requirements."

[John-in-KC]

What AvidSM said

 

As long as the youth member and the Counselor stay the same, once the youth has started, they stay ... unless they mutually agree to change

[Eagledad]

AvidSM beat me to it. The scout and counselor only have to complete the MB the scout started. Pretty simple really.

 

We tend to think in terms that new requirements will make it more difficult for the scout and counselor, but more often than not, the new requirements are more relaxed. That has in the past left a counselor working with two different requirements of the same badge. Some of those scouts feel its unfair because they completed requirements the other scouts aren't required to perform. I personally don't see any ethics or moral delimas here, but the counselor might find themself doing the two-step.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Yah, I'd ask baschram645 why in da world as a MBC he was accepting ancient documentation from a long-past summer camp, eh?

 

I think everyone's right, as a counselor yeh finish up a lad under the requirements you started him with. No question.

 

If you're pickin' up a lad who started with a different counselor, perhaps some time ago, yeh sit down with him, look at what he says he's done, talk to him and determine what he knows and understands, and then make a plan from there. Sometimes yeh go with da old, sometimes the new. Sometimes yeh accept prior work, sometimes yeh don't.

 

Remember, there's no such thing in da BSA as a "partial" merit badge. As da merit badge counselor who signs that the boy has earned the badge, it's your obligation to make sure that he has met all of the requirements.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

One of the things I've started to discuss as I train MB Counselors is:

 

"Have the Advancement Coordinator on the Troop Committee charge the Librarian/Scribe to check MB pamphlets every January for currency."

 

Current requirements. They are the bane of my existence.

 

One time a Scout came to me at first meeting (I prefer at least two meetings with them). He was a go-getter, had everything done ... by his MB pam. I can guarantee you he got that second meeting. He was using not a 1 edition old, but a 2 edition old pamphlet.

 

A different mantra: The MB Counselor is responsible for currency in his/her badges.

[packsaddle]

See, the thing is...there's that pesky part at the very bottom of the Eagle application that reads: "EDITIONS OF THIS APPLICATION PREVIOUS TO THE xxxx REVISION SHOULD NOT BE USED."

Just prior to the 1999 rule change, the boy who had earned Life and was almost ready to advance to Eagle, who had completed everything but the six months in a POL, suddenly had to earn the Personal Fitness merit badge and no longer needed the Safety merit badge that he had earned as an Eagle requirement.

 

The only reason this kind of thing doesn't happen for other ranks is because WE have the latitude to apply the sensible approach that has been discussed here. But where National sets the check-off and does not allow previous editions of the application, I still see a problem. I have actually seen this happen, and not just once. The boy was confronted with the change so he delayed advancement until he completed the NEW requirement.

 

Ed, I think this might qualify as 'adding to the requirements.'

 

Of course, I might have missed something here. Perhaps the boys' delay was needless. Someone please clarify.

[evmori]

You could be correct pack, but that's how I do it! We use the most current MB pamphlet! If I'm completing a partial, I check the start date and use the most current pamphlet regardless of what the Scout used.

[John-in-KC]

Pack,

 

That's where a call to the Professional adviser to the Council Advancement Committee is in order. See what the lead time is.

 

National, though, is getting better on lead time for significant changes.

[Eagledad]

>>See, the thing is...there's that pesky part at the very bottom of the Eagle application that reads: "EDITIONS OF THIS APPLICATION PREVIOUS TO THE xxxx REVISION SHOULD NOT BE USED."