question about den chief

[kittle]

I've looked at and read over the requirements for Den Chief. Is there a work book somewhere that they need to fill out detailing exactly what they did/are doing? Can they work with any age Cub Scouts?

 

My son has been working with a Cub Scout Pack since about March (officially) and sometime last year (unofficially). He was using this as his POR for Life Scout and the SM knew and approved him doing the position. I was told Tuesday night that he didn't work with a Webelos den or fill out a workbook so none of his time would count.

 

I already talked to someone at district level and he was wonderful, but I was wondering if other Troops had these same policies about Den Chief.

[Eagledad]

If the SM approves it, he is fine. They can work with any age Cub Scout. I've not heard of a work book, that would something new in the last couple years, but it wouldn't hurt for the SM and Scout to set some goals together and discuss how the scout is doing toward those goals.

 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

Is there a work book somewhere that they need to fill out detailing exactly what they did/are doing? No. There is a Den Chief Handbook #33211B which has a worksheet in the back for completing the Den Chief Service Award. Maybe your SM is requiring completion of the Den Chief Service Award in order to grant POR credit. Not a big deal if scout did his job as den chief.

 

Can they work with any age Cub Scouts? Yes

 

Usually a scout will receive POR credit as a den chief if

1. SM pre-approved this position

2. DL gave a good report of den chief's attendance and performance.

 

My $0.02,

[gwd-scouter]

Hi kittle. Both of my sons served as Den Chief. Best POR as far as they are concerned (I agree).

 

Unless something new came along, there is no workbook that I remember although there is handbook, similar to Patrol Leaders Handbook which outlines the responsibilities of a Den Chief. For both sons, the Den Leaders they worked with gave an update to their Scoutmaster every month or so - in younger son's case the SM was me! Both also earned the Den Chief Service Award. Perhaps your son's SM is thinking about filling out the paperwork and checking of completion of the requirements for that? If so, earning the Den Chief Service award is not a requirement for getting credit in a POR serving as a Den Chief.

 

Hope this helps.

[AG_Scouter]

I may not post on here a lot, but trust me I am a good source. Here's a link to a PDF of the actual form:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_web.pdf

 

You'll notice from that, there is no mention of what sort of a Cub Scout den it needs to be. You'll also notice no mention of a work book.

 

If the Scoutmaster has previously approved this activity, I would have your son ask why he (the Scoutmaster) hadn't shared with him (your son) any sort of a book that he should have been logging things in? I think goals and attitudes and leadership skills are great topics while the Scout is working through Eagle Requirement #4, but to come now and say, "You never checked back with me...", that is something I would bring up with the Scoutmaster if it were in my Council.

 

Speaking as a council volunteer, we get pretty excited when we hear about folks adding to the requirements. This sure sounds like a case of that to me. If a talk between your son and his Scoutmaster does not turn up a better understanding of what's up, I would speak with either the District Advancement Chair, the Council Advancement Chair, or the Council VP for Program. They may be able to shine some light on this situation.

 

Good luck.

[kittle]

Not SM who is questioning son. It is a member of committee, advancement chair. Want to defend SM, he has been good. SM approved it during SMs conference, son went before board and they approved, board member who wasn't there (one in charge of records) informed that it wasn't done correctly.(This message has been edited by kittle)

[shortridge]

The advancement chair doesn't have a say in the matter. If the Scoutmaster approved his service and he's done a good job, then he gets credit. Simple as that.

[Eagle92]

As others have posted, there is no workbook to fill out. Now there is a DC Handbook, which is a good resource, and it contains the paperwork for the DC Service Award, a red white an blue shoulder cord that can be worn until 18 as a Boy Scout, 21 as a Venturer.

 

And as Short said, once the SM approves it, time served as a DC counts as the SM is ultimately responsible for advancement in a troop. So your son has POR credit from March to May then Aug to now, unless the pack met over the summer AND he attended functions, then June and July count.

 

If the committee member coninues to bother your son, tell you son to ask him where in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, #33088B, that he his getting his information from because he has never heard of such requirements.

 

I HATE WHEN ADULTS ADD TO REQUIREMENTS (head hitting wall now)

[Eagle92]

I overlooked the fact that the BOR approved it. Once the BOR approved it, it is a DEFINITE DONE DEAL! The committee member for advancement has to deal with the BORs decision. Once given, rank cannot be taken away.

[CalicoPenn]

There is absolutely no requirement for a Scout to work with a Webelos Den in order to get credit for POR time served. Absolutely none. Ask this advancement chair where s/he got this information - and ask them, nicely, to produce a written directive from the Boy Scouts of America that states that in order to get time in service for a POR, a Den Chief must fill out a workbook and serve in a Webelos Den. If I were the Scoutmaster and the Advancement Chair tried to pull this stunt, I would be confabbing with the Committee Chair on who will be replaced first - the Advancement Chair or the Scoutmaster.

 

Schiff said "Maybe your SM is requiring completion of the Den Chief Service Award in order to grant POR credit. Not a big deal if scout did his job as den chief." I disagree - this is a "big deal". There isn't a single requirement for rank advancement that requires serving more than 6 months in a POR. However, there is a requirement that a Den Chief serve for one year in order to be eligible to earn the Den Chief Service award. Telling someone they must earn the Den Chief Service Award in order to use Den Chief as a POR effectively adds 6 months of service time for a rank advancement - precisely the kind of adding to the requirements that isn't allowed. However, I do think a Scoutmaster should strongly suggest that a Scout serving a second six month term as a Den Chief earn the Den Chief Service Award. As has been pointed out, a Den Chief who is diligently doing his position should be able to earn it without even knowing it.

 

[John-in-KC]

Requirements #33215 is integrated into scouting.org.

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards.aspx

 

Not one bloody word about what this Advancement Coordinator is describing.

 

Den Chief is perhaps the most valuable POR to the Troop if done right. The Scout out there, trained, deployed, and supported has huge Adult Association working directly with a DL, can be the Pied Piper of Hameln leading Cubs to the the Troop, is instructor and guide...

 

A good den chief, working well with his DL, is a Godsend to a Troop.

 

God bless your young Scout, kittle, get out the silver flaying knife attachment for your tongue and give this off-the-reservation advancement coordinator a good talking-to.

[Oak Tree]

kittle,

 

As everyone else has posted, there are no such requirements (workbook or Webelos den).

 

I would probably take a more friendly approach - first you'd want to identify who you need to talk to. If the advancement chair feels like he can overrule the board of review, you probably want to talk to the committee chair. I'd start by asking the AC a few questions. 1) Where does it say that? 2) What workbook are you talking about? How would my son have known about it? 3) Do you have the authority to overrule a board of review? I thought their word was final. And then I'd ask the committee chairman those same questions, maybe phrased as 1) Why does the AC think my son needs to be DC for a Webelos den and use a workbook? 2) Why does the AC think he can overrule a board of review? 3) Why does the AC think he can overrule the SM on questions of who served in which position?

 

Then you can always go on to district or council (or possibly your COR or IH although they wouldn't be appropriate in most troops). And you can fall back on some of the standard Scouting rules that are pretty easy to find: you can't add to the requirements, and you can't take away a rank once earned.

 

Now, do other troops have rules like this? A Scoutmaster could decide, I guess, that he was only going to approve Scouts to serve as den chiefs for Webelos dens. And he could also say that some of the expectations of the position would be that the Scout must do X, Y, and Z while serving(a reasonable requirement might be: attend den meetings, a less reasonable one may be to work toward the den chief service award by filling out some workbook). If the Scout didn't fulfill the requirements, the Scoutmaster could remove him from the position. According to the rules, though, if the Scoutmaster appointed him as a den chief, and he didn't remove him, then the time has to count.

 

I'm not aware of any troops that have rules like what you describe. Some set a minimum age and/or rank for a Scout to be a den chief, but that's all I know of. I'm sure that some do a periodic check to make sure the boy is actively serving. I've occasionally had boys that I didn't think were ready to be den chiefs, so I didn't appoint them, but that's nothing like what you're describing.

 

National has gone back on forth on whether Tiger dens can have den chiefs. One year they're not included, the next year they are, then they aren't again, then they are again. The current den chief training talks about Tiger dens, so I guess they're in. That means that any den can have a den chief, and any such role would count for advancement.

 

[Eagle92]

Oak gave some great advice HOWEVER you SCOUT should be doing this and not you the parent. IF the scout gets the brushoff "because your a kid," THEN I would get involved as it is your son's advancement, his responsibility and the adult should be working with him. IF the adult doesn't wan to work with him, he doesn't understand the program and may need to be replaced.

 

If my tone sounded abrupt, I'm sorry. Yes you need to be polite and scoutlike, BUT FIRM. This is a personal pet peeve of mine, adults adding to requirements, and stems from the time of my EBOR when an adult tried to pull that stunt on me and tried to deny my Eagle b/c he didn't approve my service project, when his predecessor did. So sometimes I get a little hot under the collar.

[Oak Tree]

Eagle92, No problem. I agree the Scout should ask first. I was presuming that it looked like that route was going to be unsuccessful, and I never really want to put a Scout in a position that is going to rapidly deteriorate with an adult. But absolutely, have the Scout ask. Scouts generally don't know all the nuances of the rules, though, so my experience is that they can be steam-rolled by adults pretty effectively.

 

And I'm fully with you on how frustrating some adults can be in their "interpretations of" or additions to the rules.

[gwd-scouter]

I would like to offer some clarification here about the Den Chief Service Award.

 

It is not easy to earn by simply working as a Den Chief for one year. The Den Chief, besides attending weekly den meetings, assist the den at monthly pack meetings and other things, must also complete four of the following: help Webelos transition to Boy Scouts, serve as staff at a Cub Scout function such as day camp, resident camp, serve as staff for a cub scout special event (we use pinewood derby for this), help in recruiting new cub scouts, help cub scouts transition to Webelos, recommend another scout to serve as a Den Chief, advance one rank.

 

Not an easy award to earn and certainly not one a boy could earn by simply working as a Den Chief for a year.

 

(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)