Boys dont care about advancement

[Beavah]

One disturbing trend I found at the end of my time as SM were many boys who simply did not care about advancement

 

Yah, RangerT offered the above quote in the parent thread, eh?

 

I confess I've seen some of this as a long-term trend across many units as well.

 

It was interestin' to me that RangerT reported boys who were very involved in scouts talkin' about how school, sports, work, etc. made 'em care less about advancement. Perhaps the "adult pushed" nature of all those things is wearin' 'em out. And I do think advancement is an "adult pushed" thing in most units.

 

Any other folks seein' this?

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

Yes. Unlike RangerT, I see it mostly with boys who are working toward Star, Life, and Eagle. Honestly, the first few ranks focus on the "fun" stuff - outdoor skill, new adventures, etc.. From talking with my son and his friends what I hear is that star and life in particular, are more "work" and less "fun." By the time they get to this point they've often already done the outdoor-oriented MBs and have things like personal management, family life, communications, and the citizenship badges in front of them. Not that those aren't important, but for most boys they're probably not as exciting as, say, camping and hiking, which is what they joined scouts to do. It takes a different level of maturity for a boy to see the benefits of doing these badges. So I'm not surprised that a lot of boys get to 1st Class and then stall out for a while, or even for good. Hopefully the troop has a decent older boy program to keep them engaged and maybe they'll come back to advancement when they're a bit older. Anyway, that's the trend I've seen in my son's troop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

At one time, Life was the highest rank one could earn, and Eagle was an award given out based on the number of merit badges on earned - and it was possible to be awared the Eagle before one became a Life Scout - that was in the very beginning.

 

So given the historical beginnings of Eagle, I'm willing to risk ticking off some of the traditionalists by asking "What if the BSA changed the nature of required merit badges - would that motivate more lads to advance?" I wonder if the BSA would be served as well, or better, by limiting the number of "required" merit badges to 5, all to be earned at the more skills-based ranks, and let candidates for Star, Life and Eagle choose the merit badges from the 106 other merit badges being offered. They would still have to meet number requirements (6 more for Star (total of 10), 6 more for Life (total of 16), 4 more for Eaqle (total of 21).

 

For required merit badges, how about Cooking for Tenderfoot, First Aid and Swimming/Hiking/Cycling for Second Class and Camping and Citizenship in the Nation for First Class.

 

Would this live up to the spirit of Eagle and keep older scouts more active and engaged, and perhaps earning some of the "rarer" Merit Badges out there, keeping the spirit of Merit Badges (a collection of topics in different interest areas that let Scouts get their feet wet exploring them)?

 

Calico

[Gold Winger]

If they don't care about advancement, so what? Boy Scouts isn't about making Eagle. It isn't about merit badges. Parents worry more about advancement than the boys do. "No driving until you make Eagle!" "I want you to make Eagle by the time you're 15."

[scoutldr]

I don't think Swimming should be optional.

 

Dr. Leonard Sax has written a book, "Boys Adrift: Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated and Underachieving Young Men"

 

He mentions physiological factors, such as that young men's sperm counts today are half that of their Grandfathers at the same age. Testosterone levels are also lower, perhaps due to environmental estrogens that we are all exposed to.

 

I haven't read the book yet, but here is an excerpt from an interview:

 

Lopez: So how does a boy catch this weird new virus of apathy?

 

Sax: Good question. I have families in my practice where one brother is motivated, intense, hard-working while his brother is a goofball whose main concern is reaching the Kilimanjaro round in Halo. Same parents, same family, same opportunities. Some boys are clearly more predisposed to this syndrome than other boys. Whats troubling is how much more common the syndrome is today than it was 30 years ago.

 

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2YyODgwMzEzODRkOThmOTQwNDBiOTVkZGQyNjMzZDA=#more

[Eamonn]

From what I have noticed.

Young Lads do want to dash ahead.

They like the "Pat on the back" when something is signed off in their book, they enjoy the limelight when they are recognized.

As they get older, I'm not sure why? Maybe because they are so busy with other activities? Maybe because they feel they are being pushed? Or maybe they just don't see it as being cool?

They do tend to stall.

But what has always struck me as odd, is that at Eagle Scout BOR's when I ask which MB's they enjoyed working on the most?

Nine times out of ten they will select one of the more difficult MB's.

At a BOR this week someone asked a super nice Lad what Merit Badge should be done away with? He said Finger Printing, because it was to easy.

 

My son was a Life Scout for a very long time. He claimed that the Troop was just pushing him too hard and that when he seen some of the kids who had got Eagle Scout he thought if "They" are willing to give it to him, it isn't worth having.

In the end he did complete all the requirements.

I think in part because the Council gave a $100.00 bonus to Summer Camp Staff members who were Eagle Scouts.

Maybe not the best of reasons! Still I was happy that he did it and HWMBO got to use all the Eagle Scout stuff that was in her cupboards!

Ea.

[Bob White]

Anyone who thinks that teenage boys don't like adventure or recognition probably lacks the needed understanding of youth to be a good selection for a scout leadership.

 

The problem of scouts not wanting to advance is most prominent in units that make advancement the goal of scouting rather than using it as a way of measuring a scout's skills, and recognizing them for their achievemeents. The purpose of the program is to develop character, citizenship and fitness not to get rank advancements.

 

If you deliver the program correctly every active scout will achieve First Class and will undersand what they will need to do if they choose to advance further.

 

If an occasional scout has no interest in advancing further thats not unusual, but if a unit has a lot of Scouts who are not advanceing that is a unit leadership problem. But a fun and adventurous program will motivate scouts to seek more information and higher skill levels and advancement will come to them through their participation and the choices they make.

 

Also keep in mind that some scouts simply work at a different pace than others. I have seen scouts take more than three years to earn Star but then mature and become more goal oriented and start making and working an advancment plan.

[Gold Winger]

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[evmori]

We had a Scout in our unit many years ago who never got past 2nd Class & aged out! Had no interest in advancing! Loved the program & what we did as a unit & was very active! Great kid just no interest in completing any of the requirements!

 

Bob makes an excellent point when he states some scouts simply work at a different pace than others. I would take this one step further & state all Scouts work at their own pace.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BulldogBlitz]

I don't think it is disturbing at all. I became a scout in 1981. I idled at both Tenderfoot and Second Class. I wasn't interested at all in certain aspects of the ranks. I was even less interested in being "one of the boys" who were getting ranks at the semi-annual CoH - there was just something about being drug up there and made the center of attention that this introvert really couldn't appreciate. However, in the time that my advancement was in a holding pattern, I managed to earn 30+ merit badges. I loved our camping program. I liked getting out and doing the specialty things that merit badges provided. One day, the Scoutmaster sat me down and said "Jon, why are you still Second Class?". I had lost track of the requirements, and really was but was a short way from First Class. All the merit badges needed for Star, Life, and Eagle were taken care of. I went from Second Class to Life in the bare minimum of time. Is that apathy? I'm apathetic then.

 

This weekend, I pulled all my scout memorabilia down. I read letters that I had received congratulating me on Eagle. One statement in particular stands out with regards to this post:

 

"Not all boys are scouts, and only 2% of those that are scouts attain the rank of Eagle".

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Ah but Bulldog, you were still doing something . . . you were earning merit badges. For most of the Scouts that I've dealt with, they get merit badges at camp or when some adult decides to "lead" a merit badge.

[emb021]

"At one time, Life was the highest rank one could earn, and Eagle was an award given out based on the number of merit badges on earned - and it was possible to be awared the Eagle before one became a Life Scout - that was in the very beginning."

 

Sorry, but not quite correct.

 

At the begining, the highest rank was First Class Scout.

 

Life, Star, and Eagle were nothing more then 'super merit badges', earned just by getting additional merit badges. There was no requirements for tenure, leadership, or any service project. (all that came MUCH later).

 

Life was earned by getting 5 specific merit badges.

 

Star was earned by getting 10 specific merit badges.

 

Eagle was earned by getting ANY 21 merit badges. (this was hope one could get Eagle without getting Life and Star).

 

Then early on, someone figured that the 5 points of Star would tie in better with the 5 required merit badges, and flipped Life and Star, and also added that the 21 merit badges had to include the required ones for Star and Life.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I would answer one of CalicoPenn's questions, Yes, it would be a good idea to reduce the number of Eagle-required merit badges. I said the same thing when the subject of adding Cooking to the required list came up a couple of months ago. (By the way, if they were going to change the required list effective Jan. 1, 2009, they would have announced it by now, right?) The balance has swung too far over toward the required badges, and I think the "career and hobby exploration" aspect of the merit badge program no longer gets enough emphasis. (The required merit badges are basically a combination of "life skills" and "Scouting skills" rather than career and hobby exploration badges, although I suppose one might make an argument that Environmental Science falls into the latter category as well.)

 

As for how many required merit badges there should be, cutting it down to five would be unrealistic. I think 10 would strike a better balance than there is now (with 12 out of the total of 21 for Eagle being required.) As discussed on that older thread, however, it is tough to see what they would remove from the list, especially if they add Cooking. But I agree with whoever above identified the proliferation of required "homework" badges as being part of what may "turn off" some boys to advancement. For example, Citizenship obviously is important, but I don't know that it's crucial to require all three of the "cits" for Eagle.

[Kudu]

When Baden-Powell extended "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" (what we call "Advancement") beyond First Class throughout the former British Empire, it followed his primary principle of Scouting:

 

Boys best learn Citizenship through hands-on encounters with the forces of nature while camping in small Patrols under the leadership of the best possible boy-leader.

 

If an adult only understood ONE thing about Scouting, it was that Scouting is a GAME that INDIRECTLY teaches Citizenship.

 

Scouting is the opposite of learning Citizenship in school.

 

To this end Baden-Powell's Proficiency Badges (what we call "Merit Badges") are ALL centered on advanced mastery of Scoutcraft and Public Service skills. And every "Award" (what we mistakenly call "Ranks") requires an extensive backwoods "Journey" or "Expedition" by land or water.

 

The United States did not discover the "Patrol Method" until 1923, so the Handbook for Scout Masters dictated that "Scout Masters" keep Patrol Leaders weak and in their place so that the Scout Master was the "Real Leader."

 

Three of six methods of Scouting (called the "Six Principles") were based on this adult-led "Real Leader" method: 1) A Clear Plan, Well Thought Out, Progressive in its Stages; 2) The Leader Should Tell the Boys What the Game is and How it is to be Played; and 4) The Scout Master as a Real Leader.

 

Here is an example of the American program at the time when schoolwork Merit Badges were invented:

 

The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader....[Handbook for Scout Masters, First Edition, page 85]. See The Inquiry Net:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm

 

Without the Patrol Method, Americans believed that Scouting should be the SAME as learning Citizenship in school.

 

The reason that we have so many "Required" Merit Badges is that the boring ones are bad Scouting. Red-blooded American boys rightfully hate them.

 

If your Scouts simply did not care about advancement after First Class it should not be a big mystery:

 

Scouts get enough school at school.

 

Kudu

[skeptic]

One way to keep the citizenship focus there, but eliminate required badges would possibly be putting them back into a single badge in the manner of the old Civics badge. Some general requirements that are inclusive of all 3 levels, then some more specific focus in one or two requirements for each area. Not sure about Family Life, which is really sort of related to the old Citizenship in the Home and the Family Living skill award. Could also re-institute the grouping ideas for some required badges like we had in the 50's; choose one from -----, that type of thing. But, what would do the most good, IMHO, is to put some time restrictions on the early ranks again; a boy could still get to FC in a year, but it would possibly strengthen the basic skills a bit if done right, especially putting something akin to signaling in again. I know for me, that was absolutely the most difficult part of FC; but it instilled a certain level of life growth by making me focus and work hard to accomplish it.