Let us talk about "Test"

[LongHaul]

Over and over we talk about No retesting how a BOR is not supposed to be a retest. When I look up the word test I find this;

 

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

test1 tɛst - Show Spelled Pronunciation[test] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

noun

1. the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.

2. the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.

3. a particular process or method for trying or assessing.

4. a set of questions, problems, or the like, used as a means of evaluating the abilities, aptitudes, skills, or performance of an individual or group; examination.

 

This sounds exactly like what a BOR is particularly number 4. Lets think for a minute what comes to mind when we use the word test. What I think of is a pass/fail situation. Now I know that a BOR is not a pass/fail situation it is an advance/not advance situation. 

 

Some hold that if a boy cooks a meal for rank it should count for MB work and visa versa, if he sleeps in a tent he can get credit for Tenderfoot and Second Class and Camping MB and OA eligibility but every time he wants to advance he must clear the Scout Spirit hurdle. When I was a scout First Aid MB was a requirement for Life as well as Eagle but we were not expected to earn it twice.

 

If Im sitting on a BOR and I toss a scout a length of line and ask him to tie a bowline and he cant but I still vote to advance was the request a test? Memorizing the Oath and Law is required for Tenderfoot yet almost every BOR includes some form of revisitation of the Oath and Law. How is tying a knot a test but explaining what a Scout is Loyal means to you not a test?

LH

 

[frank10]

LH,

I see a BOR as about the same as my yearly performance review when I was a programmer. I'd sit with the bosses, we'd talk about the past year, my strengths and weaknesses, areas to improve in, training ops, how I felt about them and a whole lot more...

Never once did a manger ask me to prove to him that I could write a program on the spot. And that review was for real $$ not for First Class.

[Gold Winger]

"Never once did a manger ask me to prove to him that I could write a program on the spot. And that review was for real $$ not for First Class. "

 

First Class is more important than $$.

[hotdesk]

Asking a question that simply requires a verbal response is different than asking them a question that requires action during a Board of Review.

 

Per the National Website (scouting.org) a Board of Review is how the troop committee (or the Eagle Scout board of review) tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop.

 

This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders.

 

Throwing that scout a rope is not determining the Scout's attitude or acceptance of Scouting's ideas. Asking him what different parts of the Scout Law or Oath means to him should help gain an understanding the scout's understanding of Scout's ideals.

 

On a Side Note:

 

I will agree that First Class rank shows that a scout has begun to have a basic groundwork of scouting's ideals and skills. However, in the real world no one outside of scouting will ever care if you reached First Class. There are two things to share in the real world; 1. I was in Boy Scouts and 2. I am an Eagle Scout. I'm not going to pay someone extra for advancing to First Class. However, I'll be impressed with someone who was in Boy Scouts and with someone who is an Eagle Scout.

 

[scoutldr]

Nothing wrong with asking a Scout to tie a bowline. Just don't do it during the BOR.

[CalicoPenn]

It's quite possible for a question about the Scout Law or the Scout Oath to become a test in a BOR - it really depends on how the question is worded and what the expected response is.

 

I would suggest the following wording of the question is a test: "What does A Scout is Loyal mean?" The proper way to answer this question is with a rote answer - with the book answer. Now re-word the question: "What does A Scout is Loyal mean TO YOU?" Now the question becomes personal so the answer becomes personal - the book answer isn't the appropriate response (I'd interrupt a scout giving me the book answer to this question to tell them I'm not asking for the book answer, I'm asking for a personal response). As the scout gets older, I'd expect the answer to change. Now the question is no longer a test to see if the scout knows what A Scout is Loyal means, now its a way to gauge where the scout is in putting A Scout is Loyal to practice.

 

Tossing a lad a length of line in a BOR and asking him to tie a bowline is a test, and should not be done in a BOR. If his book is properly signed off that he can tie a bowline, the testing part is done. Instead, asking what knot was the hardest to learn, what knot has he been using most often and what knot does he feel he will rarely use - and why - is more of a BOR type question.

 

I submit that the definition of test above, especially number 4, doesn't apply to a BOR. A BOR's purpose isn't to evaluate the abilities, aptitudes, skills or performance of a scout. All of those should have been completed before the BOR. The BOR is an evaluation - but is an evaluation of the attitude, satisfaction, momentum and motivation of a scout. Two different things in my book.

 

Calico

 

 

[Beavah]

Angels dancin' on the head of the Retest Pin again, eh?

 

Perhaps better than splittin' all the hairs we can on the definition of "test", we could instead share all da different ways we've seen a BOR actually be productive and help a kid toward growin' in character. Without comment or judgment.

 

I've seen all kinds of BOR's that were good for kids and good for da unit. Some of 'em asked skill questions, some didn't.

 

Beavah

 

[LongHaul]

>>Per the National Website (scouting.org) a Board of Review is how the troop committee (or the Eagle Scout board of review) tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop.<<

 All in the space of 30 minutes. These guys need to hire themselves out to screen job applicants for the government.

wingnut that is what the SM conference is for IMO.

>>"What does A Scout is Loyal mean?" Nope can't ask that. "Why?" Asked him that for Tenderfoot. "What does A Scout is Loyal mean TO YOU?" Let's see we asked him to explain that in his own words for Tenderfoot but I guess the spin would work. >>Tossing a lad a length of line in a BOR and asking him to tie a bowline is a test, and should not be done in a BOR.<< Says you but National leaves it as no retest so I can spin the knot tying just like you can spin the Law meanings. I don't care if he can tie the cotton picking knot I want to see how he handles the challenge. I want to see if he tells me I can't ask him to do that.

 >> The BOR is an evaluation - but is an evaluation of the attitude, satisfaction, momentum and motivation of a scout.<< So the SM signing off on Scout Spirit means nothing more that the ink it took to initial the box because the BOR is going have to pass me off yet again on Scout Spirit based on my attitude. Attitude toward what? What the people on the BOR think you should be thinking of course. Prepare for that why don't you. Your satisfaction with Scouting so if your not having a good time don't let it show or you won't advance. They will look at your momentum and motivation so if your stalled because we don't have much of an outdoor program or your loosing interest because this is a dad and lad camping club more than anything else, don't let it show. Cuz you won't advance.

So far all I can tell is "test" is what ever the person posting says it is.

We can ask the scout to answer the same questions over and over and expect different answers. We can tell him that having his SM attest to his abilities and performance is fine except for Spirit. The BOR determines Spirit even when they have never seen this Scout before in their lives. When I'm asked to decide if a Scout fits my expectations of something I will ask him to do or answer what ever I feel I need to make that decision. So long as my decision is on his fitness for advancement and not his ability to perform I don't see a problem.

 LH

[insanescouter]

IMHO this what a bor is ....

 

It is a way to gage the standing of the troop and how well the youth leaders are doing in teach the skills and requirements.

 

We have had it happen before where we find 6 or more scouts come to a BOR and none of the can correctly answer a specific skill question or tie say a knot - and we notice all 6 scouts had that requirement signed of by the same person ... do we fail the scout - no - do we ensure they are retaught - yes ... do we go back to the person who signed it off for 6 scouts who don-t know and ask why they don't know - yes ...

 

However lets say a Scout comes to the BOR and we ask a handful of questions like what did you cook or how useful camp gadget did you make or can you tie me a tautline and we find they do not know many of the requirements not just a fail we will fail them - well there is a chance... however we look past that we look at their attitude, what they do to live Scouting ideals in their daily life, with older scouts what their future goals are, how they are doing in school, etc as part of that decision ...

 

We have even had parents come up to the SM and say "you know my son has been fighting with his brother, and not doing his chores.... I was wondering if you could let the board know" ... and yes the board is notified and it is factor into passing or not ... or even in some cases by the SM to if the scout spirit is signed off...

 

in our Troop the Scout Spirit is signed off at the SM conference .... just the way we do it ...

 

Anyways hope my wacky ramblings were useful to someone ...

 

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

Helping leaders one resource at a time...

[Hunt]

"If Im sitting on a BOR and I toss a scout a length of line and ask him to tie a bowline and he cant but I still vote to advance was the request a test?"

 

Yes, it was. I am amazed the lengths to which folks will go, and the knots they will tie themselves in, to justify continuing to test skills at BORs. If you disagree with BSA, and think that retesting is good, that's one thing. But requiring a boy to demonstrate skills and saying it's not "really" a test is something else.

[Gunny2862]

I, IMHO, think that any skill can be asked about during a BOR. However the outcome of the proper performance of the skill shouldn't be what is evaluated about/for the Scout - he should pass or not pass without regard to the outcome of this portion of the BOR.

 

The point is seeing him perform under (really very mild)stress and evaluating his character response. If you don't buy this answer then there is the other answer - That it is to evaluate the program as delivered by the SM and his ASM team by seeing successful they have been in imparting the skills to the Scouts. And then what feedback can be given to the SM to allow him to deliver a better program (which should include the skills and the character development), e.g. insanescouters post above.

[LongHaul]

Hunt,

    Your opinion is based on your interpretation of the word test. You also go on to single out "skills". >> I am amazed the lengths to which folks will go, and the knots they will tie themselves in, to justify continuing to test skills at BORs. If you disagree with BSA, and think that retesting is good, that's one thing. But requiring a boy to demonstrate skills and saying it's not "really" a test is something else.<<  So am I to believe that testing skills is a no no but continual retesting knowledge of the Oath and Law are all right? or is it OK so long as we reword the question each time? National uses terms that can be interpreted differently, "test","earn", they compound this with publications and forms that confuse. The advancement form from National says >> "I certify that the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America, and that merit badge counselors are registered adult members of the BSA."<< The ACPP says that the BOR should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review. The first of these being "To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank." And if he didn't do what he was supposed to do? If he obtained a signed merit badge application or certification improperly? We can't ask him to do it over, we can't invalidate a registered MBC's certification. The handbook says this boy has demonstrated tying the bowline and described several ways it could be used but now he doesn't even know what a bowline is let alone what to do with it. "Bowline? Oh no I don't have Archery Merit Badge." Can't tell him to redo work already completed. Too many catch 22s. You say >> If you disagree with BSA, and think that retesting is good, that's one thing. But requiring a boy to demonstrate skills and saying it's not "really" a test is something else. << I can't tell if I disagree with BSA because BSA won' t let itself be pinned down to actually saying something definitive about this. AS for your last sentence should we take that to mean you do not believe proper communication skills are just that skills? When we sit for 30 minutes talking with this boy are we not actually requiring him to demonstrate his communication skills? We use different words like they are interchangeable then balk when someone does not agree we our understanding of a word. I've stated how I interpret "test" it's a pass/fail designation, but because you don't agree, I'm wrong, your right and you claim BSA supports you..except that it's not written anywhere except in the terms over which we have a disagreement of meaning, that disagreement being why I'm wrong and your right.  Kinda reminds me of the definition of pornography being "I know it when I see it."

LH

[John-in-KC]

My answer is a combination of CalicoPenn's post and Gunny's post!

 

If, as CC, I sense a problem in the youth membership, I am within my rights to call BORs for one or more boys. Trust me, though: These BORs are not for advancement. I'm getting a data sample on 1 or more tasks or challenges.

 

THEN I take the SM out for coffee, and we figure out the bigger problems.

 

I see we haven't yet discussed the final piece of a BOR: The question the Scout gets to answer: HOW CAN WE MAKE TROOP 123 BETTER? It really is amazing how they can cut to the the quick of defining a problem for us!

 

[Beavah]

:)

 

I really enjoyed LongHaul's rant about definitional agreements.

 

It is true that sometimes I wish da BSA hired a good document continuity editor.

 

Part of the confusion is that some stuff comes out of different offices.

 

Da rest of it is that it comes out of committee, and the folks on the committee are as conflicted as we are here!

 

So perhaps the way to think about it is more like a range. Lots of things go on by way of some form of retesting, especially on the Oath and Law, and on safety stuff (wait 'til they add the new YP requirements to T-2-1). Outdoor skills too, in many units. There's a range of variation dat's acceptable. But yeh can go too far out in either direction... being a 100% Final Exam kinda thing on the one side or bein' so lax that yeh are teachin' bad lessons about character on the other.

 

Beavah

 

[Hunt]

"This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned."

 

That seems pretty simple to me. As I said, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, and you don't even have to comply with it. But if you retest at BORs, make sure you don't criticize people who fail to do other parts of Scouting by the book.