Advancement Rigor: 1960s v 1990s+ into now

[John-in-KC]

I'm going to ask here for opinions from fellow late 40-somethings and 50-somethings. We were the ones who used the 1959 and 1965 (6th and 7th) editions of the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Now, I understand there is need for change:

- The Internet has replaced signal flags. WHAT ABOUT SURVIVAL MIRRORS?

- Suntans are no longer encouraged.

- Browse beds are discouraged.

- First aid techniques have improved.

 

Even so, if we look at the requirements:

- Camping

- Hiking

- Cooking

 

Does the program, in your evaluation, have sufficient rigor, or has it been watered down? We've had this discussion with several of the requirements for Merit Badges, what about the basic program?

 

It'll be interesting to see what our considered thoughts are

 

I put this in Issues/Politics so we can go to town and give ourselves some room for "heartier" debate.

[jr56]

I certainly think that the current program is much better than the attempt to take the "outing" out of scouting back in the mid 70's.

I suppose more outdoor emphasis could be instituted, but then, it's a different world today than the one I grew up in.

[LongHaul]

Internet and cell phones are great as long as you have a cell tower near by and a charged battery. Morse Code may be of little use but semaphore still holds up. We lost stalking and tracking. I doubt any of our boys today, with the exception of farm children or avid hunters would know how to clean a kill for cooking. Fire by friction isnt covered in the Handbook. With all the attention the reality shows get and the interest in the Survivor type shows may be its time to bring some of the old things back.

LongHaul

 

[scoutldr]

 

 

I believe Cooking and Swimming should be back on the required list (not optional). Also, the three 5 mile hikes for 2nd class.

[John-in-KC]

Scoutldr,

 

I tend to agree on swimming. My son did both swimming and cycling on his trail. Now he marches with a sousaphone, so habits of fitness did work to take hold.

 

I absolutely agree on Cooking. I'd be willing to go to 22 MBs to get it back on the Eagle required list. To me it's a basic essential skill of the male. It's all the more so in this era of broken marriages.

[local1400]

Great topic John! I have some older Scout handbooks in my collection for reference, and I am always amazed at how the requirements have changed over the years. As an 80's Scout, naturally that is my era of preference. I still have my skill awards! I too think Cooking MB should be required. I liked the fact you had choices between say, Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving. I earned them both. They were not easy. Seems like when I compare Handbooks, some things are easier and some things are harder between now and then. I don't know how to skin a hide. Don't want too. I just cleaned my first fish last year- my wife made me.

[Hunt]

I would say that overall, the program is rigorous enough as long as boys are actually required to fulfill the requirements as written. I think that like others, I would make some changes that might make specific parts more rigorous. For example, I don't like Swimming and Lifesaving being optional, because I just can't picture an Eagle Scout who isn't capable of saving a drowning person.

If I were revamping the requirements, I would consider having two groups of non-Eagle-required Merit Badges, "Scout Skills," and "General," and would require that a minimum number of the optional merit badges had to come from the Scout Skills group--this would include things like Cooking, Wilderness Survival, Orienteering, Pioneering, etc. I guess this would make the program a bit more rigorous--but I confess I don't like to see an Eagle candidate who has the required merit badges, and then Art, Dentistry, Fingerprinting, Basketry, Mammal Study, Indian Lore, etc., but none of the more skills-oriented badges.

[Lisabob]

Just a small aside John, about those survival mirrors. My son carries an old CD - says it works as well as a mirror would, weighs less and is a little less likely to break, cheaper too. New material, same old purpose.

[Stosh]

There's nothing in the book to say that these older skills are now taboo to be taught.

 

My honor patrol scouts all wear a Myer's Code flag as a patrol neckerchief and know how to use it. They use Morse Code rather than Myer's Code, however.

 

They also know how to tie a Turk's Head Knot to hold their neckerchief in place.

 

While they are at it, they are also learning to cook at a level far higher than that set down by the minimum requirements of first class requirement or the cooking merit badge. As a matter of fact, the last time we went out on an outing the troop had the traditional hobo dinner (foil dinners). One member of the honor patrol collected up all the hobo dinner food for the venture patrol and they feasted on mashed potatoes with hamburger/onion gravy with glazed carrots on the side. It got one pot dirty from boiling the potatoes and glazing the carrots and a cast-iron fry pan dirty which took all of 2 mintues to clean up.

 

Remember, all these "requirements" for advancement are pretty much just the bare minimum just to get by.

 

The venture patrol also has a boy very well versed in flint and steel and they are all working on who's going to be the best with drill and bow.

 

Too often once the requirements are met it means the end of the story. That's a major disservice to our boys. First Class Scout means the boy has reached the minimum level of self knowledge to survive on a basic level for a simple campout. He's no Jim Bridger once he makes First Class.

 

Give the boys more opportunity. Those old requirements are extremely fun to work on as a specialty activity. Don't deprive your boys of some great opportunities.

 

Stosh

[MollieDuke]

I really believe that not only has our BSA program been watered down, but our entire educational system been watered down. As a teacher, I'm amazed at honor's level kids who cannot spell simple words or complete a simple set of instructions in order with no errors.

 

That said, our troop feels so strongly about things being watered down, that we have implemented a 3-1 meeting rule of thumb. The first three meetings are by the book (new book), and the next one is an older book achievement or activity and so on. We also ask that each boy learn the basics and build on those basics.

 

That is where I think people drop the ball. I think they do the basics and forget to follow up or ask for more as boys get older.

 

Fire by friction should be taught to each and every boy no matter what. YOu never know when a boy may need this if they get lost in the woods or if they are in an auto accident where they are stranded for awhile particularly in the snowy areas. SOmetimes these skills can be useful way down the road.

 

Beware of mediocrity. It's everywhere.

[John-in-KC]

Mr Blake,

 

You missed my point:

 

HOW MANY hikes to qualify for 2d Class, then and now?

 

HOW MANY NIGHTS in the field?

 

HOW MUCH COOKING?

 

HOW COMPREHENSIVE a knowledge of first aid?

 

"Neither add nor subtract" to the advancement plan. Yes, we can add skills to the skillset, but is the ADVANCEMENT PLAN ITSELF rigorous enough?

[ljnrsu]

Having used both the 6th and 7th editions as a scout,joined in 1964 earned eagle and age out (both) in 1971. I would say that the current program has been watered down. Simple proof of this is FCFY. Back then scouts earned about 1 rank per year. You could only work on requirements for your next immediate rank. Each rank had a time requirement and "while a _____ scout do the following:". Requirements were also much more intensive than they are today.Examples taken from the 1969 requirements book:

Second class: #7 do the following (a) Identify local plants that may cause skin poisoning. (b) Find and identify in the field 10 different links of wildlife (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, insects) or evidence of them. Tell what they are, describe the natural surroundings where each was found, and explain how this wildlife depends on plants. Ten distinctly different kinds of wildlife must be identified. For example, a crow can be counted only once even though a nest is seen, a feather found, its call heard, and the bird actually seen. Furthermore, exact identification must be made from obesrvation or evidence. For example, the nest mentioned earlier must be identified as a crow's nest and not just a bird's nest.

# 9(b) Build a fire on a safe spot using not more than two matches. © On this fire, cook-without utensils-a meal from raw meat (or fish or poultry) and at least one raw vegetable. The term "without utensils" means without such itemd as cook kits, foil, tin cans, and other items manufactured for cooking purposes. Native materials such as kabob sticks, green stick broilers, etc, may be used where permissible.

Life: #2 While a Star Scout, plan develope, and carry out Scoutmaster approved projects in each of the following areas: (a) Church or synagogue, school, or community service. (b) Conservation Submit one project from a and one from b.

italics copied from requrements book

For Eagle you had to earn both swimming and lifesaving merit badges there were no "or" options.

I could go on and on about the differences between rank and merit badge requirements then and now. The easiest way is to see the differences is to check troop library if they have the handbooks or requirements books from back then and see the differences.

(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

[Gonzo1]

I agree that the program has been watered down. It seems though that Tenderfoot has been made a little tougher lately, but in all, it's an easier program now than in the 70's.

 

I still have my old skill awards too. I wish they would be brought back.

 

Rank requirements are just the basics, not proficiency by any means.

 

Mollie had it right, the whole public school education system is easier too. I wish I could remember where I read it, somewhere was a sample 6th grade exam from Washington's era, not many people could pass it today.

 

[local1400]

Yeah Gonzo, the skill awards could be earned in a short amount of time and you felt some sort of advancement between rank, huh? And First Aid MB for FC! I just bought the latest BS Handbook edition last week (Mrs. 1400 sprang for the coil-bound!) and have been comparing requirements. Showing the kiddies my old stuff- they really liked the colored patrol patches.

[LongHaul]

I agree with ljnrsu that the requirements are less demanding. Id like to see some of the Scoutcraft brought back. If I could change one thing, it would be to have the boys work on one rank at a time. I teach you safe hiking, then I teach you to use a compass and a map then I have you use the compass and a map to take a 1 mile orienteering course. I teach you to assist in food preparation, then I ask you plan a menu and cook food for yourself, then I ask you to plan a menu, purchase food and be head cook for the entire patrol. The ranks build on each other, done out of order I think the boys loose part of the experience.

LongHaul