gwd-scouter Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Now that our PLC is working and the guys with PORs are doing their jobs, I'd like to work on another step in our troop's progress that is lacking. Advancement. In the past, the SM or other adult leaders would simply enter things into the computer when they knew a scout had done something (unfortunately, they also did this even when they didn't know for sure a scout had done something but was merely present when a topic was being discussed). So, the scouts got used to waiting to be told when it was time for a conference and BOR for their next rank. Our troop is now very active, with PLC planned meetings and outings. So, it is not that the guys aren't doing anything or working on things. They are. It's just that they don't seem interested in having requirements signed off. We have given the responsibility of sign offs to the PL, SPL and Troop Guide for those guys not yet first class. Weekly meetings and more especially campouts have started to include instruction and testing on requirements such as knot tying, setting up camp, food preparation, swimming, fires and knives, etc. All of our newer scouts have done these things. With the exception of the fitness requirement which the TG writes in their handbooks, they just don't seem interested in having other things signed off. Example: a couple of weekends ago we had our fall camporee. TG and PL were working with newer scouts on lashings. They built a marvelous gateway using all of the lashings and knots required for rank. New guys learned and practiced the taught-line when putting up our quonset hut (they've all done this several times). I watched as the TG and PL taught the lashings and then the younger scouts worked on them over and over. So, why haven't any of these guys asked for the requirements to be signed off? They don't bring their handbooks to scout meetings or on campouts. All of the new guys have purchased groceries, have prepared food, have discussed food preparation and safe handling, yet none have had these requirements signed off. Do I mention this myself to the guys? Do I remind the TG and PL that they should mention this to the guys? Too many times in the past I've had a young scout come to me and ask when he will get his next rank. How can I get these guys to think about it for themselves and read their books? Edited to add: please don't misunderstand my post to think I'm trying to make our troop an advancement mill. On the contrary, I am thrilled to see these guys learning and enjoying the journey. My son has been sitting on Star rank for over a year and a half with only a couple of merit badge requirements to finish. But, he's enjoing himself so I don't want to push too hard. Just trying to figure out a way to get them to think about what they are accomplishing. (This message has been edited by gwd-scouter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 How do we get them to think about anything? As stated in another thread, my observation is that kids these days are just waiting to be spoonfed their next activity. They don't think, they don't plan, they just react. Yesterday we had a canoeing outing at the SPL's house which is on a large lake. The activity has been planned for months, troop calendars were handed out, and the parents knew all about it. The weather started out iffy, but the clouds cleared by 9 am and it turned out to be a warm, sunny day. Some showed up late, having to be roused out of bed by the parent with whom they were riding. They were all told to bring a contribution for lunch (chips, drinks, cookies, etc)...none did. I'm the first to admit that troop meetings are boring, because, in spite of the PLC planning, come Monday night, nothing is prepared. I've thought about firing the SPL and getting a new one, but they're all the same. My perception is that they live their lives in 15 minute increments...at the end of the troop meeting, there is no further thought of Scouts until next Monday night at 6:45 when Mom says, "It's Monday night and time for scouts", at which time they grab their balled up shirt from under the bed and get in the car. Then they show up at the meeting and sit down, waiting for the next 15 minutes' worth of entertainment. I started Safety MB with them several weeks ago. I went over all the requirements, most of which need to be completed at home with family involvement. I gave them several resources (internet, etc) with which to find crime statistics, safety checklists, etc. I'm still waiting for the first one to come back and say "Mr. Scoutldr, I've completed some requirements, would you look at them?" They are simply not interested, unless someone nags them. I'm not going to do that. As I reread this post, it occurs to me that this may be why Scouting is in decline. It's not that kids are not smart enough. It's because that today's culture does not fit the "boy-led" model. Planning and leading is anathema to the way they are being raised, both at home and at school. Then they perceive meetings as "boring" because the SM doesn't do everything for them like the parents and teachers do. Perhaps B-P's model no longer works in today's society. Hmmmmm.(This message has been edited by scoutldr) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Amen Scoutldr. I perceive the same thing. SPLs change, some do better than others, but unless you spoon feed them, nothing gets done. We still try to be boy led, but things only work out when you barrage them with leading questions and follow up again and again. The only scouts who advance in our units are the ones who's mothers are nagging them. I take the approach of being there if they need me, but I ain't gonna do it for them. That irritates some parents. My own son is advancing simply because his mother nags him about it. My opinion is he should advance when he wants to advance. Her opinion is he won't unless led by the nose to do it. She is right of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Hey Scoutldr - cheer up. You're right that society really doesn't place much emphasis on boy-led these days (or girl-led either). But keep in mind that when B-P started scouting, he did so in part to respond to what he saw as a gap in the way young men were being prepared for adult life (in the military in his case). So scouting has always existed in part to augment the education that our youth receive. But it is a funny thing about advancement. I've seen a similar trend to what you've all described in our troop with about half of the boys. The other half are pretty gung ho about advancement. I don't know for sure but here are a few things I've seen that differentiate the two groups: 1) Among our younger scouts, those who seem more interested in advancement frequently have older brothers in the troop and they pattern themselves after the older brothers. Maybe it is conscious, maybe not. 2) In general, the boys who are 13-14 and 1st Cl-Star rank seem the most interested in advancement. Maybe Star and Life seem attainable to them (not that many requirements, after all, unlike the first few ranks, and no big scary Eagle project either). It seems to me that we do have a lot of boys who sit on scout, T, 2nd Cl, and Life for a long time. 3) Among our younger scouts yes, it certainly does seem to be the case that those whose parents (Dads too) push them are most likely to advance. They're still trying to figure out the system and make the shift from cub mentality to boy scout mentality. Keep in mind that in most cub packs, rank advancement is not something the boys consciously work toward or are even personally in charge of- it just happens most of the time. At any rate, I was initially a bit pushy myself. But I've backed way off on that when I realized that my son was really resisting (and resenting) it. My son is STILL a tenderfoot after almost 2 years with the troop and at this point it is only because he doesn't bother to get sign-offs most of the time. Yes, this is still occasionally a source of irritation for me (chiefly because I just don't understand it). But we had this funny conversation about it not too long ago. We were talking about role models. He said that the boys he respected most in the troop were also those who tended to be in it for the experience, forget advancement, and by the way, that he thought these boys displayed the best leadership skills. Of the specific boys he named, 2 out of 3 earned their Eagle badges recently, barely shy of their 18th birthdays. Conversely those for whom he had the least respect were those who are quite vocal about wanting to "Eagle out" as soon as possible. He said their attitude carried over into everything they did, including their leadership styles in their PORs and that they viewed and treated scouting and other scouts as a chore to be managed, rather than an experience to enjoy and friendships to be built. Not bad from a 12 year old, hmm? Geez I hope he gets past tenderfoot eventually here and I don't agree w/ him about just not bothering to get his book signed. But I do think I like his approach to the bigger picture so I'm willing to bite my tongue. By the way gwd, does your troop attend a summer camp that puts rank requirements on any really fun activities? That may be a good motivator, at least through 1st Cl rank. We did mb sign ups recently for next summer's camp (I know, that's early - a whole other story) and the camp we'll attend does put rank limits on a lot of mbs and other activities, apparently to keep class sizes small. Several boys including my own determined that they needed to get going on rank advancement between now and then if they wanted to do some of these exciting "advanced" activities. As for when those boys ask you to tell them when they'll be ready for their next rank, I think I would just turn the question right back at them. "I don't know, when do YOU think you'll be ready?" Maybe in some cases followed by a nudge to talk to their PL/SPL/TG about working on specific skills that they're interested in. Lisa'bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljnrsu Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 How to motivate scouts who are not advancing the age old question. There are many ways you could try to motivate your troop on advancement. You could sit with your SPL or PLC and discuss what you are seeing with regards to advancement. Get their suggestions on what can be done and at the same time you could also make your own suggestions(plant seeds). At that time you could remind them that having their scout handbooks at meeting/trips is important to help teach the requirements and for having requirements signed off as completed. You could suggest the SPL/PL have one on one conferences with the scouts who are forgetting have things signed off. Have them list the requirements they feel the scout has done but not been signed off on because they forget to bring their handbooks. Have SM conferences with the scouts and do the same. Make your own list up of requirements that you feel the scouts have done but not been signed off on. Let the scouts know if they bring their handbooks those requirements can be signed off. Remind them that without their handbook no one knows where they stand on what is needed for their next rank. I do realize that Troopmaster and other such programs does keep track of ranks above first class in regards to MB's earned. SM conferences are just not for scouts advancement they can be used for scouts who are not advancing in rank. I am sure you have your own ideas on what could be done. Over many years of working with scouts I have learned that the idea of they are responsible for their own advancement is foreign to many scouts. They are used to having teachers/parents tell them what to do and when do do it. Those scouts need gentle reminders of where they stand and what they need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Yah, I think we've all seen this, eh? I think it's a bigger and bigger problem in schools too - like boys who are smart but just don't hand in their homework. Somethin' about their not bein' "engaged" by the system. Maybe dat's the system's fault. Maybe some units (and some schools) need to rethink how they deal with advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 gwd... Mentorship, mentorship, and more mentorship. Adult Association is as much a Method of Scouting as is Advancement. The object of the exercise, for us Scouters, is to make the Grand Game result in young adults better prepared to assume their stations in life. Sometimes, I think we don't spend enough time coaching, challenging, and encouraging the youth. We worry about the discipline problems, and do not spend the time we need to with the great kids. What's the old adage? We spend 80% of our time on 20% of our kids (usually the problems??).... Use Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review. Check in with the youth, frequently. ENCOURAGE them to talk to those who can sign them off, especially if the skill is already "in hand." At the same time, encourage them to enjoy the journey. There are lots of trails to explore in Boy Scouting, particularly when a young man has achieved First Class (such as OA). For Lisa: One encouragement for your son is there things he cannot do along the Scouting trail until he is First Class ... such as stand for election to OA candidacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 For Lisa: One encouragement for your son is there things he cannot do along the Scouting trail until he is First Class ... such as stand for election to OA candidacy Yeah John, I really don't think he's interested. Sorry to say. Honestly I don't know why - and I personally don't have time to look into it - but our troop is not real involved with OA. I'm sure it is a good option but not something he's chomping at the bit to learn more about right now. Thanks for the encouragement though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I've found that lack of advancement causes fall into one of two camps. Either the scout isn't very active or he just isn't very aware. Here's some examples. Scout #1 has been in since last summer. He'll attend a troop meeting or two in a row, and then we won't see him for 6-8 weeks. Someone (an adult or maybe the Troop Guide) will pick up the phone and call them to see what's up. Suddenly he'll be back for a meeting or two. He attends summer camp and maybe one or two other campouts. In sixteen months, he still hasn't made Tenderfoot. Yep, that's right. Tenderfoot. A few months ago his dad asks me what he needed to do for his son to advance. I told him that I could answer it with one word. His son needed to participate. He showed up for another meeting or two, and then disappeared until I e-mailed him directly a few weeks ago. This family used to give me heartburn, now I just don't worry about it. We may have a 17 year old Scout some day still trying to earn Tenderfoot. Scout #2 is very involved. His dad is an ASM. He seldom misses a troop meeting or an activity. By virtue of "being there" he's advanced through First Class in a little over a year. (What I mean is that if you are present this much, you are sure to advance through the early ranks, just through the normal program). He's been ready for Star for almost three months. The thing is, he didn't realize it. Their advancement status is always available to them. I've mentioned in my SM Minute at a few meetings that there were guys who just needed to do a very little to advance. Still, it took him a few months to realize he just needed his SM Conference and Board of Review. When he finally asked for his conference I laughed and asked him what took him so long. He just shrugged and said he didn't know that he was ready for it. What I do to try and help.... I try to make advancement status publicly known (hoping for positive peer pressure). I make individual advancement and history reports readily available to families through our website. And I (or other adults) regularly encourage scouts to take ownership of their advancement. This three-pronged approach (peers, parents and adult leaders) tends to be all the motivation most boys need. Except for those who are absent or unaware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo1 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Good comments above, something else to consider is posting an advancement chart on the wall. Some are motivated by seeing the progress of others. Require the scouts to bring handbooks to all meetings, outings, etc. Have PL's remind boys to bring handbook. Provide mentorship to SPL an TG to check for handbooks, then have them look at the advancement in the book. SPL sits down with a scout, TG with another and asks questions, scout demonstrates, TG/SPL sign off. Then, walk over to the chart and check it off. Everyone sees the progress on the chart........ it takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Perhaps B-P's model no longer works in today's society. All it takes is one single gifted Patrol Leader with a lot of charisma, a natural ability to lead, and a love of camping (which is really what advancement is all about). After a while, another Patrol Leader will begin to imitate him and if the Scoutmaster helps here and there without getting in the way, he will see that B-P's model is based not on the specific nature of "society," but on the universal nature of boys :-) Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr56 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I've seen lots of boys who are not interested in advancing until they develop some mental maturity, at about 13-14 years of age. Some pick it up, others don't, but advancement is not the end all. It has been stated many times in this forum that advancement is only one of the methods of scouting. Just because a boy isn't advancing, doesn't mean that the total program is a waste for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 >>Mentorship, mentorship, and more mentorship. Adult Association is as much a Method of Scouting as is Advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Barry, I think you're onto something. At work, we all have tasks we have to do. Some are rote. Some require thought and planning. Most require some degree of training before we do them on our own. All tend to get easier the more often we do them. To me, the tasks of the advancement system, reinforced by practice from the activity of the program, are a tool to instill the work ethic in people. At the same time, I really like what you say about character development. Even the older teens sometimes do not get something. My son, a 17 YO Eagle, had a bit of a struggle last night understanding that folks expect him to be a friendly sort (from his very nature), and do not understand him when he gets testy. More food for thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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