DeanRx

"Here is what works for our troop: We have a medicine permission slip for prescription/non prescription meds that they must list what med., amount, time and date to be given. All meds must be in original container with current dosage and only send amount that will be needed for the weekend in a ziplock. I am the one who safe keeps the meds on the trips (always there hubby SM). The scouts get their ziplock and open the bottles and take the meds. If there is a medical emergency I think it is important to know when that scout had whatever med." Very good way of handling the meds. 1) Send only what is needed in original pharmacy containers, labelled from the pharmacy. Ask your pharmacy for a reprint labelled vial for school or camp use. They should be more than willing. If not, I'd change pahrmacies. Any kid who is on a long term med should have a "travel" bottle at the ready (this goes for adults as well). At least if he looses it, the parents aren't out big$$ in copays for a 30 to 90 day supply worth of med that the insurance won't pay for until next month. 2) Have a central control point / person. This person's job is not to administer the meds, but to keep track of them and give the correct kid the correct bottle. This should be done at the UNIT level. Having all meds in a large camp with the first aid tent / cabin is unpracticle and runs the risk of potential for diversion and med-errors. If you have all the Ritalin together in the same place (and everyone knows it), then there's only one place someone has to go to steal it all. Also, most first-aid stations are manned by EMT's or LPN's at the camps (if even that level of training) and having 50+ kids to keep straight, especially when the individuals are not known to the staff, leads to medication administration errors. Johnny gets Joe's Methylphenidate 10mg SR, while Joe gets Johnny's Methylphenidate 20mg IR, etc... very easy to get things confused. Keep the meds under ADULT supervision at the UNIT level in ORIGINAL PHARMACY CONTAINERS. You can hash out whether or not the supervising adult wants to be responsible to remind the scout(s) that its time to take drug a or drug b, but I would side with that is the scout's responsibility unless the scout is unable (i.e. Down Syndrome / Austistic / or other special needs condition). In that case, I would guess that the scout is going to have a parent or some type of chaperone along on the campout, as few adults would be willing or prepared to meet the needs of such a scout and still provide adequate supervision to the rest of the unit. My 2-cents FWIW.

The 1 teaspoon per gallon of water is a good guide. However, if one wants to think about WHAT the bleach is going to do, then you have to ask WHAT are you trying to treat against or prevent? 1) Viruses - uh ok, maybe - but not likely to linger on a well washed surface. 2) Giardia / Protozas - not likely as long as the water source is potable. To be extra safe, use only boiled water as the wash and hot rinse bins. More likely to be an issue in non-rinsed camelbacks filled from non-filtered questionable sources than from dishwashing water. 3) E. Coli - Ah... now we're getting somewhere... this bad boy is the likely culprit of most (if not all) camping tummy troubles. Can the sanitizing rinse prevent it? Yes - but not likely given the amount of time most dishes are given contact with the bleach-water solution. Most medical papers I've read on the subject suggest that contact in such a solution must be at least 1 to 5 minutes depending on the concentration of the bleach. 4) Other bacteria - maybe - but very few can live long on metal or plastic kitchen surfaces / wood cutting boards are a whole other monster and best avoided all the time (but especially when camping). Bottom line- A) Make sure the WASH is good. You can rinse in straight bleach and it'll do little good if the pan is put away with gummy mac-n-cheese still stuck in one corner. Scrubbing beats chemical serilization 99% of the time. Even with handwashing, the physical scrubbing does most of the 'germ' removal, the type of soap used makes little difference, but too short of time scrubbing leaves the bad guys on your hands (and dishes). B) Speaking of handwashing, this is where 99% of all camp gut problems come from. Not just the cooks, but the eaters as well. Poor personal hygeine is the #1 reason for backcountry illness - period. C) Safe foodhandling practices (i.e. don't mix raw meats with veggies on the same cutting board) and proper food storage - keeping food either COLD or HOT, not in the luekewarm danger area, do more to prevent foodborne illness than sanitizing clean dishware. D) If you're really concerned - then do the bleach thing. But to be extra careful, you can leave dishware out in the open once cleaned, with its cooking or eating surface exposed to sunlight while you are doing your other camp activities. The UV rays from the sun will likely be just as effective (if not more effective) in killing off any lingering 'bugs' that could make you sick. Just be sure to rewash, if a bird happens to land a bulls-eye on your dinner plate That's my 2-cents.... and yes - I am a real doctor. Dean

I would agree with "never hike alone", but why "never hike at night"? Some of the best hikes are night hikes. Our council camp does them all the time with cubs. Its cool to see the stars out on the trail for most city kids. We do it with an adult at the front and one at the rear both with red-lens flashlights and thats it. We have other lights for emergency use, but encourage the scouts to expirience the outdoors in a very different light (so to speak). With a decent moon, you can see well enough to avoid getting lost, twisting ankles, or creeping up on animals (the last has more to do with being quiet, which never happens when hiking with kids). Not sure why night hiking would be on the do NOT list - other than that list seems to grow with each new publication in BSA land DeanRx

jhankins - I think we need some additional info in order to give a valid opinion on the situation... When I was a lad (some 25 o 30 years ago now) - the most common discipline applied by SM was: 1) Not being allowed to participate, sit-out or suspend if needed for X number of days / meetings - maybe delay a BOR by one meeting 2) Pushups (10 to 20) for minor infractions... not sure how this would go over with parents these days - God forbid we use a form of punishment that would serve the purpose AND improve physical fitness at the same time 3) "Move that pile of rocks from A to B, or move that picnic table from A to B, then back again"... most often used for mild to moderate infractions at summer camp 4) "Go stand under that tree and don't move for 5 minutes, if you move, the time starts over" - teenage version of being in time-out All those seemed to handle anything I or most of my friends could ever do wrong while in scouting. If the infraction involves an issue that could cause physical harm to another, then maybe talking to the parents is in order. But, I personally saw the picnic table moving work very well to discipline two guys who had come to fistacuffs at summer camp. Then again, the counselor made them move the tables from about 10:00 at night until past midnight all over the parade grounds in front of other campers enjoying their crackerbarrel time - not the most PC way to do it, but it got his point across.

Barry - I agree with most everything you posted. #1 - get rid of the Tiger Cub program, don't even THINK of going nation-wide with the lion cubs! A 6 year program = burnout = dropout #2 - as a CM with a boy who is getting ready to bridge to his Web I year from Bears, I have come to realize that the STYLE and TYPE of adult leader needed for the Den really needs to change for the Web years to be good at preparing a lad for Boy Scouts. Some folks might be able to shift their focus from a parent led top down approach to more of a boy-led / take turns leading approach, some may not. I have heard some talk of this being a gender specific issue, but I don't think that is the case. I am coming to the belief that between the Bear and Web I year is a good time to have a change out of the DL if at all possible. #3 - The Web DL specific training really needs to emphasize the DIFFERENCE in lower levels of cubs and the expectations of webelos. It also bears stating that the training should focus on prepping boys for Boy Scouts at least as much as it emphasizes advancement and getting them to AOL. Most training I have been to puts a lot of attention on advancement. With the dropping of Cub Scouts Helps and the pushing of Fast Tracks programs - I fear this unbalanced approach will grow more as time goes on. I do not see this as a beneficial thing, making advancement the ONLY aim of the program. There are other aims that are supposed to be on par with advancement. Can anyone name them? #4 - THIS IS A BIG ONE !! - Webelos leaders, and more so Webelos PARENTS need to be told and taught that their scout will FAIL on their first attempts of some tasks and that its OK. It is part of the learning process not only in scouts, but in life that you will not get everything perfect on the 1st try (and if you don't its not OK to let mommy and daddy jump in and take over to make it all better). This is how most parents in cubs operate. I see this as being a MAJOR barrier to preparing kids for the transition to Boy Scouts. We have a very active, very well meaning mom who used to be our CC. Her son is getting ready to get AOL and cross to a troop this month. She wants to put off the ceremony because she wants the Den and Pack to have more time to coordinate with the Troops and the OA because, "Last years cross-over was not performed smoothly by the Boy Scouts in OA and we want it to leave a lasting impression on the webelos and on the younger scouts so they want to go on in scouting." OK - I can buy into that. But, here's the thing... it (the ceremony) is being ran by Boy Scouts, not the adults. It is not likely going to be as polished and primed as an adult led activity and that is OK. It will still make an impression. It was not done sloppy last year, but an Indian or two stumbled over his lines / lost his place / etc... But again, these are youth leading youth - that is what the program should be and it is rarely executed perfectly when a 14y/o is in charge. Its VERY difficult for a good number of cub parents to wrap their mind around that idea. At cub resident camp this past summer, the morning color guard unit struggled to get the flag posted. At first, they actually had it on the lanyard upside down and began to hoist it, saw they had it wrong and reversed course to fix it. In the silence in front of the entire camp - some of the parents from the unit stepped forward to start helping 'correct' the color guard. The camp director (over the PA) announced, "They are getting it, let them do it. breakfast will wait a few minutes for all of us." The camp director GOT IT, the cubbie parents did not. In fact some were openly upset at the CD for asking them not to intervene in the color guard's duty. That moment more than any showed me the difference between an effective Boy Scout leader and the usual cub scout leader. The Web DL needs to be trained to be more like the Camp Director in the example. thats not an easy task when you've done the opposite for the past 4 years as a DL.

For what its worth, the ONLY time I have even heard from or interacted with our DE in the past 2 years is when he's asking us to pitch FOS. Oh, that and the one time he dropped off scout fair tickets for the unit to SELL. To me DE = raise more money. The times I've needed information or policy guidance, I've either been redirected or ignored to the point that I have personally called the SE' cell phone at council because I had sent 3 e-mails and left 4 voice mails over a 7 day period with no response. As you can tell, I don't have the highest opinion of the effectiveness of our current DE. Eagle, sounds like you were alot more engaged with the local volunteers than our guy is. I've talked at length with pros from other areas including my old cubmaster who just finished a turn as council commish. He has been a DE and SE as well as several other council positions in the same council since I was a kid in the program. He stated to me that he is surprised by the amount of open hostility from the vols towards the pros. I relayed my story of my interactions over the past two years with our DE and told him I'm not surprized given what I've encountered. He replied that he has seen a decrease in quality of service delivered over the decades from the pros towards the vols. He said its one of the main reasons he is no longer a SE and took off the pro uniform in favor of the board member exec function he now holds.

"Does either of your councils own any camp properties? Do you ever camp there? Do they charge you? Have you compared Summer Camp fees to other non-Scouting camps? Around here, they are 1/2 to 1/3 of other camps. Remember, your council doesn't get anything from BSA registration fees. That money goes straight to national, and for Boy's Life. You don't pay anything to council as far as dues go. Nothing for salaries, camp properties, camp equipment, etc." 1) YES, we have a council camp and YES they charge us when we camp there as a unit. Granted it is much cheaper than some of the local state park camps and the ONLY place we can get shooting sports done for the boys (we pay extra for the rangemaster) 2) Unlike some other councils, our actually HAS made considerable improvements to the council camp in the past couple years with FOS dollars (or so says the council), so at least folks get to see some direct "bang" for the FOS bucks. 3) Your BSA registration goes towards Boys Life, only if you opt to subsribe to it for each youth member. It is in addition to the BSA national registration, NOT automatically included with it. 4) Our council doesn't get anything from our BSA registration fees, but it sure gets its 1/3 of our total popcorn sales each year. This past year, that came to about 8K on 24K total popcorn sales in a pack with roughly 50 active members. Thats $160 per boy directly contributed by our unit into the council coffer this year alone. I have a very hard time convincing the families in our unit to pony up FOS dollars after such a successful popcorn sale year. Many feel they have already done enough to make both the pack and the council "go". They will happily fork over additional dollars for jr to attend day camp or resident camp, but they expect both the unit and the council to budget accordingly and operate on the funds that have already been generated. Can't say I can argue with them much on that point. FOS = "fund our salaries"

I see varying factors as to WHY new Boy Scouts never "kick in" or become active in a Troop post cubbies or drop from the roster after being involved... 1) As some have stated, middle school is a time of competing interests. It is the beginning of the end of being able to do ALL the activities and the beginning of needing to be selective to truely excel at your extracirricular activities. Add in a little dose of peer pressure that "being a do-gooder isn't cool" = a lost transistion to Boy Scouts. 2) Some parents seem to view AOL as an END to the scouting career, instead of the beginning of the Boy Scout years. I have even seen (and heard) parents talk of "just get Jr. done with AOL, so we can be done with this scout thing...." They are missing the whole point of scouting. 3) Many parents have a VERY HARD TIME with the concept of Boy Scouts and the fact that it is Boy-led, not adult ran. They are used to things being planned out by adults and things looking sharp and being executed efficently. They have a real hard time with boys who will mess up as part of the learning to lead process. Many adults today (myself included) find it very hard to stand back and allow a youth to struggle with an issue and form their own solutions (especially imperfect ones). The persuit of perfection drives many to intervene when it really is not needed. 4) Many scouts (for better or worse) find out for the 1st time that they actually HAVE to do something besides show up and have fun for a Boy-led BS Troop to operate. Most spend their cubbie days doing fun stuff that was organized and led by adults. Its a HUGE intimidation factor to suddenly be faced with being RESPONSIBLE for something, not just yourself but the food for the campout, or the skit, or planning the hike. That can be a daunting task for scouts, and if not mentorred well, it can led to them dropping the program. 5) The 3C's - Cars, Cash and Chics. One a guy gets a job, a car, or starts chasing after girls... its a pretty sure bet his scouting days are numbered. This comes at different times for most boys, but if they aren't closing in on Eagle by their 16th birthday, its likely going to be a hard sell to get them to follow through. The ONE thing BSA could do to help the rosters is to implement a system wide transistion program from cubs to Boy Scouts. Some councils (and more likely districts and local units) band together and do this well, but for most its rocky at best. Being that I serve a Pack that is NOT a feeder to a ready-made Troop, it is a very real issue for our boys. We are getting ready to graduate 12 boys from WebII year the end of this month. About 2/3 are going on, 1/3 this is the end of their scouting. Of the 8 that I know are moving forward, they are joining no less than 5 different Troops in our area. The logistics of holding an AOL and bridging ceremony and having a rep from each Troop to accept the new Boy Scout(s) for each respective unit is a logistical nightmare. I had an easier time getting a field hospital ready to deploy when I was in the Army! This is where a district or council liasion would be most helpful, but no such thing exsists. As a youth, I was in a feeder pack and even with that - the transition to a Troop was not all that clear to me. I don't ever remember the SM or any other adult leader sitting down with the new Boy Scouts and telling us, "The goal of our program is for every scout to have the chance to lead and learn leadership. This means YOU will be doing the majority of the planning, not mom and dad anymore." That is certainly the way it worked, but I don't think it was ever explained to the youth (at least not to me as a youth). It took a good year before I felt comfortable in my scout Troop because it always seemed disorganized and rowdy. If I had been told - "look, your leaders are youth just like you trying to figure things out and it won't run as smooth, so just roll with it. Also, you will be a leader at some point, so be a good follower for those in a POR right now." - it would have made more sense and I wouldn't have been so self-conscious when I screwed up in a POR. Maybe we need a transistion plan for CS to BS, with an explaination to BOTH parents and scouts about the difference in the expectations for executon of the program? I don't know if it would help with retainment, but its a start. Buff Skipper - you make a good point about Web DL's getting the boys prepared to cross over, BUT I would add that in order for them to do so, they first need to be TOLD that they need to do this and be SHOWN HOW to do such a thing. Too much of WebI & II looks alot like Tigers and Wolf years, just more (and slightly harder) requirements before you get the rank. If all the DL knows is how to lead a cub scout den meeting and work them towards advancement, then that's likely what gets delivered in the program.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Just a couple of points to a very good and poinent discussion: 1) We need to diferentiate between the SM and the CM in these posts. while somewhat similar in scope, the way a CM carries out the program vs how a SM does is VERY different if in fact the SM is following the Patrol Method. CM oversees an adult-led program, a SM (if doing it right) is overseeing a boy-led program. The fact that its boy-led means that there will likely be more hiccups than if the adults just managed everything, but then the scouts wouldn't learn much and certainly wouldn't learn any leadership. 2) While the buck does stop with the SM (or CM), to those who state "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...", well how about YOU put on the chef hat for awhile. That type of attitude from parents is the best way to run off eager and engaged leaders. 3) As a unit leader, I am responsible for PROGRAM. That is it. I am not personally responsible for every boy. If a scout (or an adult providing leadership) is doing things outside of stated rules or guidelines, I have a responsibility to stop it, but if they are outside of the lines, I have no knowledge, and something happens - then THEY are on teh hook for it. I would feel terrible and its why I spend a good amount of my time thinking of safety issues for every event, but just because its a scout event - I am not the sole person responsible, and no you can't put me on the hook for it just because I wear the uniform. 4) In the first minute of my training, the guy conducting the class stated something I repeat to myself almost every meeting, "Be a duck, let it roll off your back." I've been praised when I didn't really deserve it, and I've had my butt chewed when I had no control over the situation - it comes with the territory. 5) When possible, use humor. I had a parent upset with the way one DL was conducting their meeting. I asked if the parent had offered to HELP the DL in anyway. When they answered "no", I stated that I would handle the issue by docking the DL's pay Bottom line - I listen to concerns, act on safety issues - but if its an issue of "I don't like what happened to my son" then I point the concerned parent to their DL (or the scout to the PL if a Boy Scout unit). if it has to do with program, I invite the concerned party to be involved in the next committee meeting or volunteer to run said event next year. If they say OK, then I'm ready to listen to their concern and let them help decide how to do thngs because they are truley interested in being part of the solution and making the program better. If they back off the idea of helping out, I thank them for ther feedback and ignore the comments. They didn't really want to make it better, they were just looking to **** about something. Like another poster stated - its very rewarding and very trying at times. Leadership of all types, but especially VOLUNTEER leadership takes a VERY thick skin. Dean

Yeah ! - Once again Ev and Merlyn have disintigrated a mostly civil debate into a name calling contest. Way to go guys I like pie.

dlearyous, You don't have to have a good Troop, but you do need to have at least a good PATROL with a couple of trained adults as ASM's. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the camping requirements that state they must be completed on a unit campout can be done as a PATROL. Get a couple folks trained and registered, then talk to the PL about doing Patrol campouts to meet the requirements. You just might start a new trend within the Troop once the other Patrols find out the fun stuff your son's Patrol has been up to. Your location states "Ozark Trails", I take that to mean southern Missouri somewhere? Man, some of the best camping in the country!!! If your unit isn't getting out in the woods, what a shame. (This message has been edited by Deanrx)

Merlyn- The "God" issue is one of the main reasons public schools (or more correctly the local PTA's of schools that often acted as CO's when I was a kid) no longer CHOOSE to be CO's. I don't know about your part of the country, but there are NO public schools that I know of in California that will even entertain the idea of being a CO for a unit. We are lucky enough to gain access (sometimes for a fee, sometimes free of charge) to use the school grounds for meetings, but our pack is NOT chartered or endorsed by the school or the PTA/PTO. Skeptic - I think the reason the 'gay' and 'God' issue gets lumped together is because the exclusion due to lifestyle choice and lack of faith is taken from a Christian biblical standpoint. I would agree that a lack of faith is different than a lifestyle choice (if you want to call it a choice - I'll leave the debate to choice vs can't help being gay to another topic). The issue is both are included in federal, state, and even local municipality anti-discrimination laws - therefore, they get lumped together whether they deserve to be or not. Most folks (and I would be in this camp), view discrimination as discrimination. A prejudice is prejudice regardless of the criteria used to define the group being targeted. Thats why the two get cast under the same umbrella. As for the idea that you should go find another group if you don't agree, or you can be in the group and choose to ignore the parts you don't like - I tend to agree. Whichever works for the individual. Two of the main reasons the issue(s) won't be left alone: 1) There are parties on both sides that see it as a fundamental belief at the core of what the organization stands for. One side sees it as a moral compass point, the other as a prejudiced practice that doesn't allign with BSA's stated goals of the Oath and Law, thus neither side is willing to conceed because they each see it as a fight for the ideals of the organization. 2) There are individuals who disagree strongly with the current policy stance, yet they give time in service and monetary support to BSA on a continuing basis. BSA, however, does not disclose (or at least doesn't like to disclose) how much of our national dues money, FOS contribution, or even how much of the profit margin on your new centenial scout shirt goes towards defending policy in court that the person spending the money might not agree with! It doesn't sit well with some folks (myself included) to know that a portion of every scouting dollar I spend goes to support a bigoted idea that I find extremely distasteful on a personal moral level. That said - I accept it much as I accept that I don't agree with or support everything my church spends money on, yet I still thith. I don't agree with everything my choosen political party spends money on, but I still contribute to it because I believe in their overall principles vs the alternate party's view. The difference is - even in my church and surely in my political affiliations (or any other civic group I choose to support), if I disagree strongly enough, I can provide input and work to change the policy within the group. With BSA, you are given no voice on these two issues. You speak up or speak out and you risk termination of your membership.

Rally Barry? Then what does God and the Bible (I assume you are refering to one of the many Christian religions) say about the morality of the Jews, Hindus, Buddist, or Muslims? In my bible it says these folks are as immoral as the gays and thus will not find salvation in heaven. I don't begrudge you the right to believe in your Christian faith and definitions (I in fact share many of your same views). I just think it narrows the definition when "morally straight" is de facto connected to morality as defined in a judeo-christian model. Our soicety is far more diverse than that (especially within the USA). While my personal religion is very clear on morality, I don't feel well about imposing my personal beliefs on others even when I disagree with their choice of lifestyle (I really don't like it when other try to do it to me either - kind of a live and let live thing). Scouting on the other hand, most often attempts to teach tolerance, inclusion and acceptance. Unfortunately, with TWO glaring exceptions. These exceptions are carved out based on the underlying senior leadership and senior religious supporting institutions that currently guide scouting policy (namely LDS, Catholic and other christian churches). However, BSA has a position that states Jews, Hindus, Buddist and Muslims ARE "morally straight" enough to be part of this "private organization". Just the all around non-believers and the gays are not "morally straight" enough to be included. The hypocrisy is in BSA's own position statement! I'd be more inclined to agree with and support a policy that BSA is in fact a christian based organization, thus gays, atheists and the jews, muslims, hindus, buddist, native american spiritualist, etc... are not welcome. It just doesn't make sense that the same biblical definition of morality that is used to exclude gays & athiests is not applied to other religions as well. Aside from that - I don't understand (even though the Supreme Court has ruled this way) how BSA is a "private organization" when it routinely couples with public institutions for both monetary and land use support - PLUS the national charter for BSA is given by the U.S. Congress!! How the hell is the U.S. government the CO to a "private organization"? If BSA wants to be considered a "private organization" then they need to fully seperate itself from the national charter and the U.S. federal government and cease to be afforded any preferential treatment in pricing when using public lands. Then BSA can include / exclude whomever they want. They can change the criteria on a yearly basis if they so choose. However, while they continue to opperate on public land, with public dollars supporting them, and a national charter from the federal government, they need to include ALL U.S. citizens in their membership - period! Thats the best thing about our country. It was founded on the idea that a group of people didn't want their government telling them who and what they should worship. In a country such as ours, if you want freedom of religion, you must also be willing to tolerate freedom from religion. If you want your beliefs tolerated, you must be willing to tolerate those with which you do not agree. My hope is that by the time I am in a rocking chair and my son is busy with his boys in scouting, I can look back and LAUGH at this silly roadbump of prejudice that BSA was able to overcome in my lifetime. Just as my father chuckles as he recounts the first black kids in his Troop and what a stir it caused at the time. I hope this comes true. If not, I fear scouting in the U.S. will not live to see its Bicentenial Birthday. It will die out like segregation and the scar of its biogotry will be placed rightfully on its tombstone. Horizon - Bravo... well said. Just because one might not like one aspect of an organization, one doesn't have to quit it. I prefer attempting internal persuasion to help affect a change. While I too don't think the current policy is forefront in what we do as scouts, I do believe it is like a cancer. The longer it goes ignored, the harder it will be to defeat. I just hope that one day the open dialogue can actually take place in Irving without the opposing view getting summarily bounced from scouting, just beacuse they have a counter viewpoint. That's the real shame. You have an issue with a camping policy, an advancement policy, etc... you can at least get listened to. They might ignore you, but they won't revoke your membership. But, you try and speak up on the issue of religion or homosexuality - then you open yourself to exclusion. BSA national should at least be willing to sit at the table and have an honest discussion with the opposing viewpoint.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

infoscouter gives a great resource, one that too many units tend to ignore. Our unit has an opt-out form that is supposed (most do, some we never get back) to be signed at recharter time. It basically states that unit functions are held in a "public venue" and thus photos taken by anyone, parents, local paper, relatives are considered to be in public domain unless you specifically opt out of your child being in the photos. Its dang near impossible to prevent someone from taking a picture at an event and posting it where ever they please. Unless there is a child custody or protective custody order with regards to a specific scout, I doubt your concerns are very valid. Heck, a photographer (preverse, professional, amature or otherwise) can sit at the public park and take pictures all day of kids playing or soccer games or little league games, whatever. Its a public space and as far as I know in most cities, it is NOT a crime. Would it make me feel unconfortable? Maybe. Am I going to stop my kid from participation in activities because someone might take an unauthorized photo? Heck no, we can't live our lives in fear. If it a big concern for your unit, then have a parents meeting and address the issue. Probably best if photo postings are limited to password protected web sites or just e-mailed between individuals. Places like FB are kind of fuzzy, because many of my 'friends' on FB I don't know too well, or haven't seen in years. I just choose not to be paranoid that someone is trolling a social site looking for specific fodder of young boys. Heck a quick google search would supply them with far more graphic fare than anything they'd get from a few scouting pics anyways. As far as youth protection, adult supervision, the buddy system, etc will do far more in protecting our boys from the "boggie man" than any attempt to censor their image on the net.

For what its worth, if the unit my son was in only cabin camped or had 'sleepovers', I'd be looking for a new unit. Go with the definition in the Camping Merit Badge, then go get a new Troop! Surprized you can get any sleep on a "sleepover" with the rotor-wash and sound of all the heli-parents hovering around their sons - sheesh!

BP- The only issue with "move to another organization or start their own..." is the fact that BSA owns the copyright to the structure, the rank system and most other program items. There are groups out there that would "start their own", but those that have tried in the past have been successfully sued and shut down for copyright infringement by the BSA. Funny, if the issue was if blacks could or could not be members in scouts, the bigotry would be plain as day. However, if it was the 1940's or 1950's and the internet existed, we'd be having the same discussion about whether or not Negros should be allowed into scouting. Heck, some on this forum attest to the fact that there are pockets of folks out there questioning if Muslims or Budists should really qualify under the religions policy. That's going on present day. I'd really like to see some data or hear from scouters outside the U.S. as to whether this is a hot button topic in their scouting arenas? I know from what little interaciton I've had with multinational gatherings (we get a good amount of scouts up here from Mexico), that the gay, atheist, and co-ed issues presented by current BSA policy are a thorny subject in the greater World Scout Organization. BSA is viewed by the WSO as somewhat of a black sheep in the international scouting family because of these policy stances. LDS (and to a lesser degree Catholic and other Christain CO's) may have saved scouting in the late 1980's, but without a change to policy somewhere down the road, it will likely be the death nail as well for holding onto prejudices that will not be tolerated by secular values in the next couple generations. If scouting is percieved to be a bigoted / prejudiced organization by a majority of mainstream society (some already view us as such), then the organization will not survive. We've already had issues with land use permits, corporate FOS funding, and most recently being asked NOT to sell popcorn in front of certain retail outlets because of BSA's policies and these entities being afraid of being targeted for condoning or endorsing a prejudiced organization. Maybe thats what needs to happen... if no retailer will let us sell popcorn because we don't let in the gays, and companies don't wish to give FOS dollars because BSA promotes prejudice, then national will likely change their tune. Hold on to your hats, 'cause that day may be on the horizon.

Lions = Kindergarden - oh YEAH !!! Its hard enough to plan program that meets the needs of 6 y/o to 5th graders, now we get to try and scoop the 1/2 day school kids into the program. There's a reason the K-day is only 1/2 day... their attention span can't handle much more than that. This is one of the worst ideas BSA national has ever floated.

Sounds like a cool thing to do. Just make sure to ouble check with your local council to see if you can still get away with a local tour permit if you go on the Iowa side. Some councils may want you to file a national tour permit for going out of state. if so, it can be done, but requires more front end planning. If you need a national permit, start the process now. Dean

STOP THE INSANITY !!

"nearly see-through yellow blouses"... Here is our answer to declining membership AND undervoluteerism from dads !!! Bring back the yellow blouses Just kidding - well sort of...

Our local council maintains an approved list for cub family camping on its website. However, if you want to go somewhere else, you can ask to have the alternate location approved. Their main criteria are: 1) Toliets (minimum of a KYBO - pit type or port-o-potty), no digging cat holes as a cubbie. 2) Potable water source within 500 ft of the campsite area. Basically, you have to have a pit toliet and potable water within a reasonable walking distance of the campsite to have it considered for cub family-camping. Flush toliets are not required, as 99% of the facilities at our local council camp are pit or port-a-johns, and the older cubs do 1/2 week summer camps there. The only other requirements I've ran across is with rgards to adult training requirements for activities in camp. Example- you must have a minimum of ONE adult CPR trained and one Safety Afloat and Safe Swim defense trained adults if you are going to do anything on a boat or go swimming at all. This is in addition to the BALOO, YPG, and Hazardous Weather training that someone in the group must have. But that has to do with activities, not the requirement(s) of the actual campsite. Dean

Why are you going through them so fast? Are they much different than the old tie it on and burn it to make the net types? Those are somewhat fragile, but I have a circa 1942 single mantle lantern in the old red metal case. Its been bounced around in the back of the truck with other gear on off-road trips that have shattered the beer in the cooler, but the mantle is still intact. Mantles are like razor blades - they are pricey for a reason. Once they sell you the lantern (for relatively cheap), they get to sell you mantles for the rest of your life. About $4 for a two pack is the best I've seen. Maybe call CAMPMOR.COM direct and see if they'll cut you a decent price on a case lot? They are very reasonable to deal with and are definately scouter friendly. Dean

Make sure and tell your transferring cub to get signed pocket cards for any rank(s) - might not be an issue if he is still working on Tiger rank (and Bobcat), or any other card required awards the kid might have already earned (i.e. shooting sports belts loop / etc). This is especially true if it is an intra-council transfer (from one council to another). BSA is almost as bad as the military for loosing advancement paperwork and those signed cards are his proof that he did what he did. I've had a couple scouts transfer in from out of state (military families) and have had to rebuild scouting records from scratch because the outgoing council either misplaced or did not have accurate records to begin with. Not fun, and really the only way to do it besides having the scout REDO stuff he's already done is to sit down with a parent and the book and see what is and is not signed off, then take the parent's word for it and put him in for advancements he did not do as part of your pack. Not really the way I like to do things, but I'll make the assumption that that parent and scout are trustworthy before I'll make a lad redo achievements. Not the kid's fault if the adults in the program can not keep accurate records - and I won't punish them for it. My 2-cents Dean

"If some of the activities aren't as challenging as you'd like (the ropes course, etc), keep in mind that they probably couldn't be thanks to liability issues and such." No disrespect to your post... but there are a few around here (myself included) that tend to think this is 90% of the problem with recruitment and retention in BSA.

My guess would be that they use the same supplier they aways have and this is the model that in the past has sold well. Our local scout shop has the little plastic flashlights with the cub logo on the side of it. Same cheap plastic one I had as a youth that I think might have made it on two campouts before shattering in by camp gear. I doubt it has anything odo with profit margin. It probably has something to do with who the supplier is, how long they've been supplying it, etc... Also, if its an item that sells - then I doubt anyone in procurement would have reason to think about reassessing it to see if there is an updated . safer (locking blade) model availible from the supplier. My bet is its a "If it's not broke, don't fix it" type of thing more than anything else. Tradition and continuity have been the hallmarks of scout procurement for a long time. Heck, the Pine Wood Derby kits have only been changed maybe 3 times since its inception in the 1950's. Once to change the pre-cut block of wood, once to change to the current wheels, and once to allow the introduction of the new colored wheel kits. At any one of those changes, the kit could have included some weights, or at least an instruction sheet to tell the boy and parents "You should probably add weight, because running with a stock wood block and the wheels, Jr will not likely make it past the finish line on most tracks." Nope - BSA usually sticks with what it has. A rare exception has been the numerous revamps to uniforms in the past 5 to 10 years, but other equipment is pretty standard and changes little.