Crew21_Adv

Bob White and fellow Scouters, Greetings! I fairly much concur with scoutldr. That is why the BSA has transitioned to powerpoint NLE and Specifics and all the Specifics facilitator handbooks. Also, Scoutmastership Fundamentals has tranistioned Scoutmaster Specifics and Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills. To make the same platform the same, between all Councils, and attempt to remove the local rules and "slight modifications" to the program. More recently, BSA has begun the Online Learning Center. There is no "personal changes", there is no interpretation. There may be alot of questions, when learning from a computer based training, but at least the platform and statements do not vary. I do like scoutldr thought on synchronous distant learning via satellite. In theory it is a good idea. I just don't see getting 61,600 in theaters and conference rooms nation wide. I don't even see 10 percent of that 6,160 in theaters and conference rooms. I would imagine they would like the idea of training, (hey, I like a lot of ideas), but putting words into action is another subject. But if I had the tasks nation-wide, I may do something more radical. Such as a complete change to the membership policy. Each Scout would require the simultaneous membership of an eligible parent, guardian, or sibling. Then a completion of a CD issued computer based training for Youth Protection and NLE would be required prior to the youths and adults acceptance. In the end (of my radical theory) we may have fewer annual memberships, but we may have an even better quality program nation wide. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

ASM915 and Fellow Arrowmen, Greetings! How do you get the other Scouts to understand .......? I think you nailed this question. It is nearly impossible to get anyone else to do exactly what you want. To make it personal. I look at the TV news, the political debates, and sometimes I look at my boss. Sometimes I say. "No, you're doing it all wrong" "Don't you know how to do this?!" "Let me show you how to do it!" I haven't really told my boss that yet, but sometimes I say it to the TV. In all my (limited) power... All I can do is attempt to get my boss to understand. Only by discussing, illustrating, explaining. My hat's off to the Scoutmaster or Advisor whose Troop does exactly what they want. Sometimes those Scoutmasters have "the gift of gab" and the Scouts listen to their every word. During OA elections, I illustrate and explain (or endorse) to attempt to get my Scouts to understand. I always recommend two specific actions. To illustrate, I use pre-printed ballots (and golf pencils) with all the eligible Scouts on the ballot. The names are already there, all they need to do is circle. I can't prove it, but I would expect the yield of Arrowmen Ordeal candidates increase with units that use pre-printed ballots. To explain, My second recommendation would be a Scoutmaster endorsement just before the election. Nearly quoting some of the criteria from the OA election guide. I state something like this.... "All of these candidates, in my opinion, have set the best examples of brotherhood, cheerfulness, and service. I, Mr Scoutmaster, personally believe each of these candidates will continue in unselfish service to our troop. Each of these candidates have camped with you, these candidates have helped you with advancement, some of these candidates have staffed summer camp. I endorse each and every one of these candidates for the Order of the Arrow. It would just be a shame if any of these candidates were not elected" Still, I can't prove it. But I would expect the election statistics would improve. Good Luck in getting the other Scouts to understand!! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

James, Good Luck on completing the Eagle Scout Rank! You have already received some excellent advice from our fellow Scouters. As John in KC stated, you should have obtained the Eagle Scout Rank Application. In addition to this form, you should read completely thru your Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. Cover to Cover, at the end you will see the 12 Steps from Life to Eagle. You should have the most recent is a 2007 Edition. 18-927E. There have been some minor additions to the 2003 Edition 18-927D. Also your unit committee should have the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures, No. 33088D Specifically you asked. 1. what do i do at my scoutmaster conference? I would say be yourself. Either he or she will concur that you have Scout spirit and understand the Scout Oath and Law, or recommend you to come back for another Scoutmaster Conference. If you have demonstrated Scout Spirit all along, it should be easy. 2. there are many dates on the eagle app. i am not sure about many of them (exact date i joined, exact date of life scout, etc) Ask your Scoutmaster first. Your Scoutmaster should direct you were you may obtain the correct dates. 3. who do i turn in my eagle app and eagle workbook to? Your Scoutmaster. Your Scoutmaster should have provided the next signature after your own application signature. If you Scoutmaster returned these to you, they should have shown you the application (and workbook) and which signature is next. 4. do i need to do anything else besides #3? (besides EBOR) Really no. If your documentation is prepared. After the Eagle Board of Review is complete, the next signature is your Council Scout Executive. And one of your final questions. do you think my eagle will be rejected or delayed if i'm missing dates? I would expect. It will be rejected if you have missing dates. I would reject it. It will be delayed if you have incorrect dates. Incorrect dates do occur (less frequently now with databases and online advancement). No dates, no merit badge cards, no signature in your handbook and no proof completion; bottom line, these are difficult to prove without any evidence. It is possible to earn the Eagle Scout rank after you have turned eighteen. However, all advancement requirements (ranks and merit badge) as well as the Eagle Scout Leadership Project should be completed. The Trail to Eagle should primarily be your own, but your Scout leaders assist all Scouts in that trail. You first stop, should be your Scoutmaster. Your Scoutmaster should know all the members of your Troop Committee members. You asked "What do I do at my Scoutmaster conference?" My thoughts, you should have all your documentation in order, your Scoutmaster will sign your handbook, and your Eagle Scout Rank Application under requirement 6. Your Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook should have been signed after you have noted changes to the project and provided completed photographs. There are three signatures there, the applicant, the unit leader and the project benefactor. You will need to provide your own statement of ambitions and life purpose. That means, your handbook is complete, your advancement is complete, and items 1-5 of the application are complete. After your Scoutmasters conference and his endorsement, your unit committee chairman needs to endorse everything on the application and submit the application to your Council Service Center. Finally a comment about the Letters. Letters are not always a requirement. This is a Scouting Urban Legend. A reference letter may be required. It depends on the council. Also, the way I read the most recent edition of the workbook. It is the council that provides the letters, forms, or phone calls, not the Eagle Scout applicant. If you read your Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. You should have seen "The 12 steps from Life to Eagle" Take a look at step 6 of the 12 Steps from Life to Eagle. "The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.)" Again ask your Scoutmaster, if your Scoutmaster does not know, they should inquire to the Council Advancement Chair. There is no standard BSA letter format between the different councils or districts. Having someone sit down and write a letter is sometimes difficult. Ideally, if they think you are worthy, your references will sit down and write a brief letter on your behalf. You don't have control over other people. You do have control over making their reference letter much easier. Does your council have a desired form letter? What you do have control over is that you may provide them a form letter, a pre-stamped envelope with the council's address. Again, Your council will let you know what they desire. Good Luck on completing Eagle Scout! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters, In addition to HiLo's link, which shows the Australian Scouts in action at jamborees and camporees. Here is a good link to Snowgum's Store in Australia. As I understand, the Australian Scouts do not have a National Supply Center as we do, but they contract out to suppliers (as BSA National Supply previously did with J.C. Penny's years ago). I don't know if they have an off-shore manufacturer, or how much the price mark up is. But as you view the basic shirts, the price demonstrates a dollar sign. But that is suppose to be the Australia Dollar. Currently 1 USD equals 1.15 AUD. Snowgums is a recreational outrigger store, but has a corner established for Australian Scouts merchandise. Here is a good image of their activity uniforms on their page. http://www.snowgum.com.au/Portal_Content.aspx?res=613&mainMenuName=SCOUTS&subMenuName=OFFICIAL+UNIFORM Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters and specifically HiLo, I like our current BSA uniform. Also, the most recent activity shirt, the newest activity turtleneck and action slacks seem to be an perfect for outdoor events. Darnit, I could not have planned the timing worse. In 96, Just a month after I picked up my authentic Scout Australia Outback Bush Hat, my Scoutmaster I worked with, comes back from the Philmont Training Center with the new BSA Expedition Hat. I still wear my Australian Scout Bush Hat from time to time. But the BSA expedition hat does seem to more forgiving in the outdoor weather and conditions. Coming back to 2007, for the past few years, I have been looking at my Snowgum's catalog and thinking the Scouts Australia are geniuses!! A common activity shirt which separates the program levels by their the color of the shoulder. HiLo, you read my mind.. lol Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Donert and Fellow Scouts, Greetings! If I may offer my thoughts. BLUF. I would reply; No a unit should not changes G2SS rules, the activity planner is liable, and concur, a youth may be "constructively" disciplined even if they did not sign an agreement. Guidelines, means guidelines or I would equate them to best practices. There are two types of print in the Guidelines bolded and non bolded. The bolded print really should be followed. Here is what it says in the preface. "BSA Rules and Policies. Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies." Also in the preface of the G2SS, It also says that activity planners are the ones to evaluation the risk. I usually tell my Scouting friends, to push the limit to the edge and then back off just a little, and ask yourself. Can a 10 y/o do this without harm or injury? You had asked, "Is it legal to take BSA rules from the Guide to Safe Scouting and change the rules to what you want the troop to have and then have the Scout and parent sign the agreement?" My thoughts would be, No. Breaking it down. Is it legal? Well these are not laws, they are guidelines. Let me ask, do all licensed drivers always drive the speed limit? If a cop catches them, do they give the driver a warning or throw the entire weight of the law at the violator? Hypothetically, a driver still may exceeded the limits of the law, but what would be the reasonable punishment. The second portion of your question, regarding changing the rules and have the Scout and parent sign an agreement. I would question that. Wouldn't that be deception? Have the Scout and parents read the Guidelines to Safe Scouting and understand that they are agreeing to exceed a safe practice? Or do they just think the permission slip or hold harmless agreement is normal for that activity? At a quick snapshot of what was explained, I would call that deception, and say no. A Scouting unit should not ask parents and Scouts to sign an agreement which is a variation from the written G2SS. Most chartering organizations request a family handbook, guidelines, or bylaws from the unit, as well as the unit charter agreement. I don't see a specific units guidelines being mentioned as a requirement of the BSA, but if a unit decides to publish their own family handbook, it should be in synchronization with established BSA literature. Back to the G2SS, In the first chapter there is a statement about constructive discipline and also a portion regarding the youth members behavior. A Troop Committee and unit leadership may administer constructive discipline to as far as the youth removal from the unit. I would concur with your final statement though. In the absence of a Scout or parents accepting (or signing) a unit specific guidelines. The Scout may still have constructive discipline be given to that Scout, ideally to correct an undesirable behavior. All the way to revocation of a Scouts membership. The Scout (and parents) did sign a membership application, as well as promise to live by the Scout Oath and Law. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters, Just a few comments and a question to add. Over the years, I have camped and Scouted with three physically disabled Scouts/Scouters and one severely autistic Scout. I am in know way an expert, but I can empathize with their challenges. My question. Regarding ADA compliance. Isn't there a "Grandfather Clause" on most state ADA regulations. If buildings or facilities are pre-existing, they normally do not require modification by law. However, buildings and facilities since ADA was passed need to be compliant. I honestly do not know, but I would suspect state clauses providing allowance for older facilities. Am I correct? or just confused again? Now most OA weekends or Council events that I know of require a pre-registration, as well as bringing either Class 1/2 or Class 3 physical health assessments, stating physical limitations, dietary needs, food allergies, and drug allergies. Pre-registration probably could have prevented some of the disappointments experienced. I would suspect my fellow Scouters and volunteer staff in Central Florida should have that as their standard. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

OGE, Fellow Scouters, Fellow Wood Badgers and Fellow Staffers, Greetings! I have my own opinion about Wood Badge. Hopefully most agree with it. It is difficult to see a patrol in a troop maneuver thru the year, much less to watch a patrol get thru meal prep, cooking, and KP without arguing and fighting. Equally, it is difficult for adults to go to work, and perform as a team player every day at work. Our (one hour a month) Troop Committee meetings run smoothly, for 11 months out of the year. But just one month a year, we do hit a road block and maybe a small discussion on various routes in the agenda. Thank goodness, we haven't had a complete break down over minor difference. So teamwork, planning, following a plan, leadership(and followership) all these are difficult skills to develop. I say Wood Badge is a course to learn how to communicate, effectively plan and execute those plans. When I attempt to sell Wood Badge at Scouting events. I ask, "Does your Committee communicate? Does your Troop have an annual Plan? Does your PLC and Committee carry out your annual Plan? and Are you Scouts advancing?" If the say yes to all of those answers, I ask them to join the Scouting Training Team. If they kinda wince, and say "sort of", I tell them to enroll in Wood Badge, right away! Bottom Line. My perspective of Wood Badge is; Communication, Planning and Execution. All the Scouting skills and games with a purpose are just the conduit to deliver those vital tools. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Hops and fellow Scouters, Greetings! My hats off to the Eagles out there.. But what about Venturing Silver Award Recipients? That is equally hard earned. For our younger crowd, what about the Arrow of Light? I'm glad my boys are all thru that, I just grin and laugh at my Webelos Den Leader buddies. They're Scouting every weekend for nearly two years (and I thought Mrs Crew21 Adv complained that I was never at home on the weekend) I often tell friends during NLE, That Arrow of Light, Venturing Silver Award, and Eagle Scout are by-products of preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law (or Venturing Oath). Now every Scout deserves to earn Eagle Scout. It is hard work thru various achievements of many educational and scouting skills to obtain AOL, Eagle or Silver. But I do not believe it needs to be a "Mountain Everest" extreme challenge. I'm not saying that we should set the bar so low that maybe our Scouts will stumble and trip over it. But reasonable, with as much support (not verbal encouragement, but actual support) to accomplish these tasks. It should be an achievement and an accomplishment. All Scouts should achieve Eagle, every Troop should have a huge flock of Eagles and be proud of it. But any rank that our Scouts walk out the door with; these are all tremendous achievements. At NLE, I give my fellow Scouts my own opinion or "Crew21_Adv'ism". There are quiet a few professionals, executives, doctors and lawyers that were juvenile delinquents. There are maybe just a very small handful of criminals which earned Eagle Scout in their youth. We have no idea what path our Scouts (or even the non-Scouts, all those youth in the community, schools, churches, etc), but hopefully the do grow up to be good people. Ideally, when all our Scouts grow up. They will be physically fit, and they will make good moral choice, they will have a positive character, and fulfill their roles of citizenship. My bottom line, we should encourage our Scouts to set their goal on Eagle, but we all shouldn't loose focus on the way. The focus of preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters, Greetings again! Thanks once again for your posting. It does seem that there no YPT training expiration. There are requirements for attending larger BSA events for it to be the most current. A unit cannot do much, without having their leadership YPT trained. The new Centennial Award has it as a criteria, along with the tour permits. I am certainly happy we have YPT for adults and youth. Although, I am disappointed with fellow Scouters loudly discussing expiration/renewal of YPT around a campfire were we should be talking about high school or college football. Or the latest high-tech camping gear. I did have a Scouting buddy a few years back. He brought up a good point. This Scouting buddy was a Cubmaster for his two boys at the time. His profession was as a college staff administrator. In addition to Scouts he was a youth soccer coach and an equipment manager for one of his sons baseball team. He stated along with all the college employee professional training, Fraternization, Equal Opportunity, Diversity, he had to complete a teenage (college student) version of youth protection. He also had to attend a similar seminar each year for soccer. I attended the soccer youth protection session the year before. Then he attended yet another similar youth protection for little league baseball. I also attended a youth protection seminar when I was a youth correction detention center volunteer counselor. Currently, one of my Assistant Scoutmasters is a Sunday School teacher. Guess what. In addition to our BSA YPT, my ASM had to attend the church's version of youth protection. I've heard it stated before. And I endorse the idea. For about twenty, maybe twenty-five years now. The BSA has the best Youth Protection Training program. Other BSA training is sometimes unique and trademarked to the BSA (i.e. Leading EDGE, Teaching EDGE). While, other BSA training (i.e. Wood Badge) the educational copyrights are purchased from other sources (i.e. Ken Blanchard, Spencer Johnson, Steven Covey) I guess what I am trying to say is..... It would be nice if there were a U.S. Department of Education based Youth Protection Program. And certified completion and compliance with a federal national program would suffice as training for BSA, GSUSA, Campfire Boys and Girls Club, 4H, FFA, Churches, Child Care Centers, Baby Sitters credential, Schools, College, Youth Sports, etc. A strict federal program could be accepted and reciprocal by these youth based organizations and more. Like I joked about Drivers License. The G2SS and tour permits are concerned that you possess a driver license and have current insurance. But the BSA doesn't retrain us in how to drive. On the humorous side, the BSA has 30 minute session on campsite sanitation and how cook over coals and backpacking stoves, this is a portion of Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills. But I crack up, at my Scouting friends who have daughters in the GSUSA. So I am told, the GSUSA has an eight hour (full day) adult leaders session on how to cook on a stove top, in a kitchen, in a regular home. Oh.. I'm laughing right now... To me its a riot, but aren't they being retrained in something they should have learned in high school, or at least college. I guess my bottom line. I feel there should be a federal youth protection training available, based within the U.S. Dept of Education. Which meets the requirements of professional as well as community organizations. Thanks for letting me rant for a while. Don't take it as a complaint. But more of an opinion or suggestion where National may be forward looking. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters, Greetings! Thanks for all the replies. Yes I certainly concur. Leaders should know and abide by YPG. The basic tenets remain the same. Very little information changes during the YPG revisions. (I believe the last revision was '99, correct?) Probably the hardest thing to do, is to get parents (non-leaders) to read thru the YPG portion of their sons handbook with their son. The Scoutmaster, Cubmaster and Den Leaders can request the parents to comply, but there is really no validation or an enforcement, only the initials of the parent. Year after year, I've been turn down regarding viewing the youth based movies, A Time to Tell and It Happened to Me. I finally gave the VHSs away as a door prize during New Leaders Essentials. Fortunately for adult leaders, there are training rosters (or the online learning center) and training reports are sent to our Council registrars. I concur, a unit cannot really go anywhere without having YPG trained leaders. Rkfrance pointed out, it is a requirement on the applications for all the BSA high adventure events. Since 2003 it has appeared on the adult leader application, that leaders will seek to attend YPG within 90 days. I tell my fellow Scouters during training YPG is so important, that YPG is the first thing in the handbooks. I certainly concur it is important. But if there is no periodicity (like Safety Afloat or Safe Swim Defense), then I don't like all the differences the begin with self imposed expirations, whether it comes from a unit, district or council. Just imagine, a heated discussion around the campfire or cracker barrel, all of them swearing it is national policy. "My District says all of our leaders must renew YPG annually!", "Your wrong, My Council say YPG is good for two years, not one!" and yet another Scouter interjects "My pack says YPG is valid forever!" I would like to settle another Scouting Urban Legends, and get the accurate answer (for myself and fellow Scouters which I meet). Not that YPG is required, not YPGs importance (it is important), but is there really an expiration set by National policy? Infoscouter has the best source I can see. Where a BSA national source suggest YPG should be renewed. An hour or two every couple of years may not be much to ask from an avid Scouter or parent. But in some Councils and Districts there is a large distance to drive for training. Thank goodness that National has been releasing an Online Learning Center, but still, not everyone has access to high speed DSL or even dial-up. There is no reason to not achieve YPG, but the need to renew it every year or every two years, when there is no expiration. Do we drive down to the DMV or drivers license bureau ever year to get a new license? No, but we certainly do drive down to the DMV before our drivers license expiration occurs. Dont let this stop your replies, but if anyone can cite the periodicity from a national BSA publication. I would certainly appreciate it. Thanks everyone for your replies!! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters, Greetings! Hopefully this will be a brief question and a few short answers. While submitting a District News article, and discussing Scout Training. I discussed Youth Protection Training. Bottom line. I have heard and read from many fellow Scouters and Council webpages a variety of answers regarding the time limit (or expiration) of YPG. I fully believe in the tenets of YPG, and I am not arguing the need for the training. I do want to learn the absolute periodicity for renewal. What publication is this documented in, which Scouters may readily access. I may be getting old and blind. But I could not find the renewal periodicity in the online YPG, nor the G2SS, nor the Scouting.org website. Maybe I read over the renewal periodicity of YPG and missed it. I have searched and read Council webpages stating it is only valid for one year and must absolutely be renewed the following year. I have also read various Council webpages stating YPG is good for two years, and absolutely must be renewed or YPG retrained at the end of two years. And...I swear, I've even seen Council webpages which state three years. Not to be outdone by Council websites, I have heard Scouting Urban myths that YPG training is only good for one year, and National will revoke membership if it is not renewed/retrained. I have seen National Jamboree application which requires YPG, and Philmont applications which require the current YPG. Of course, YPG is required on Tour Permits, otherwise the permit will not be approved. Even my own DE years ago, was on the regional YPG implementation team as the most recent edition came out. My DE was verbally instructed a specific periodicity during his National Level training for YPG implementation (not the PDL series) near Irving, but my DE is not able to find it in Black and White. Do I trust my DE was told this? Of course I do. I have no doubt about this. But again, maybe this was a National level instructor stating a recommended renewal periodicity. and possibly not citing a BSA source document. So... After all this. I just cannot find a national resource stating the renewal period. What is the periodicity that YPG needs to be renewed or retrained? And can you cite a National reference? Not a District, Council or Regional reference, but a National document or webpage. Thanks in advance! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Lisa, Greetings! I'm coming into this late, and you have already received some excellent advice. I believe most of your fellow Scout Leaders have seen similar in their Packs, Troops and Crews. You can probably say that most of our Fellow Scouters have seen the full spectrum. From Boys (and Girls in the Crew) that need alot of attention and supervision; to those that are a Scoutmasters dream and seem to have been born wearing the Scout uniform. My own children sometimes make me slap my forehead, watching some of the most stupid and unsafe stunts during Scouting. (If I'm not slapping my forehead, I'm clutching my chest) Then they will also turn around and do the most remarkable good turn and assist a younger Scout to learn (using EDGE) a Scouting skill and advancement requirement. I would hope that all boys in America deserve the opportunity to join the BSA, and would all be Scouts. But bottomline, it is up to the youth, their family, and (as you and a few fellow Scouters stated in this forum), it is up to the leaders and if those leaders can effectively educate and manage that specific youth. While Scouting is one of the best youth programs out there (I would say it is the best), it is not the only youth program. There are various youth sports, Junior Achievement, Campfire Boys and Girls, AWANA, FFA, 4H, Boys and Girls Club, YMCA, the list of positive and character developing organizations go on for a while. Now, before you go as far as recommending other youth programs, here is an alternative to saying "he should go". Some 12 year old Scouts may not be mature enough to work within a Patrol and a Troop. (Equally, some adults are not mature enough to drop being an individual and work in a team). But by maturing to the age of 13 or 14, these youth can effectively become members of a troop and continue to advance. As an alternative to your Troop Committee deciding "He should go", maybe this young Scout can be enrolled into the Lone Scouting Program. Alot more work and parent involvement at home would be required. Your home Troop could allow the Scout and parent to take a year long furlough from the Troop, or maybe a two year leave of absence while maintaining a slower but calmer advancement and continuous enrolled membership as a "Lone Scout". Check the eligibility on the fact sheet. http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-515.html Then after a year (or two) the "Lone Scout", if he is mature enough for the adults to manage, and he is capable of working with other Scouts in a Patrol and Troop, then transfer him back into the Troop. I believe this alternative opportunity could lead to a win-win, before your Troop Committee says "He should go". Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

onehouraweekmy, Greetings! Great name.. Hopefully no one confuses you for another forum members "One Hour". For purposes of confirming the 21 MBs for Eagle, what information is relied on-- Council records, Troop records, both? I would recommend for the new Troop Advancement Committee member should submit duplicate advancement reports to the local council advancement registrar. The Advancement Committee Member signing these sheets, are verifying the dates and merit badges to be fact. Look at 12 Steps from Life to Eagle, and specifically step 5. The Life Scout fills out the Eagle Scout Rank Application. Later thru the certification process, the council will certify each date, before the Rank Application is given to the EBOR. Most all Councils have gone to the Scoutnet as their registrar advancement documentation. (A professional software, offered by National to councils, but it was the Councils choice to enroll or maintain their previous databasing. I would expect most but not all councils now use Scoutnet). So for confirming the 21 merit badges, the Council will verify the dates, based off of the Scounet, which is base off your units advancement report. For the lost blue cards, two of which were earned at an out of state summer camp two years ago, what can be done to verify those badges again for purposes of Eagle advancement? The three part cards are retained by the unit, counselor and Scout. No part of the blue card is sent to council. This is what I would do. I would review the Scouts handbooks, and request the local summer camp merit badge sessions documentation to verify. I would use these dates to create duplicate cards. Personally, I would wager there are accurate and detailed records that the Summer Camp Program Director would keep, if they have over one or two hundred Scouts completing four to five merit badges each week. That should be about 400 to 1000 weekly. A good Program Director would keep that documentation, for a situation just like your unit's current issue. Good Luck to your Scouts and the Troop! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters, A few sources report that 8 out of 10 accidents happen at home, and over 50 percent of those happen in the bathroom. I certainly hope that Ms Annette McGivney is just as cautious at home, were most accidents occur. Certainly, I hope that Austin does not get any infections from piercing his tongue. If she has a swimming pool in the backyard, I hope that she has it fenced and covered. I wonder if Austin rides in the backseat of her car? But if she's a safe driver, she shouldn't have to worry about car seats, seat belts, or the effects of an air bag on the 10 year old. And now, after looking at the statistics. I am think about installing a KYBO or Latrine in the backyard, for my children to use. Rather than allowing them to use the indoor plumbing bathroom and risk injuring. lol Now for my bottom line. I am certainly happy with the BSA training. I trust that most unit leaders make their best decision, at the best time, and do not risk our youth's health and welfare. When I do not attend a campout. I thank the Scoutmaster and other leaders for taking good care of my Scouts. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Eamonn, Greetings! Excellent advise from our fellow forum posters! If I recall, you have a Venturing Sea Scout Ship. I checked briefly thru the Sea Scout manual, there are a few pages about the uniform options, but very little about the shoe wear. The Sea Scout manual has many references in its bibliography. One good reference is the Blue Jackets Manual, which may have some good advise as well. With youth shining their shoes. If they are Scouts or Sea Scouts, I would certainly be impressed. A military member may take their time shining their shoes, and treat them with care. My Venturing Crew and Troop youth may might stay on task for 5, maybe 10 minutes. So I figured, what would a youth do to learn how to shine a shoe. Then I Google'd "shoe shine". I loved the five minute shoeshine. (sounds like my Venturers and Scouts, quick and easy.. lol) There was a good advise on www.ehow.com and even Wikipedia offers some good advise. I wouldn't trust the banana peel shine. It might work a couple of minutes before a Crew uniform inspection or a major board meeting on Wall Street, but I would hate to see the shoes an hour later. But this shoe shining got me thinking. If my Venturers could learn to shine shoes, heck, they may do pretty darn good as a Unit Money Earning Project!! Maybe I should take this back to my Crew for their next fund raiser. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Packsaddle, Greetings! You have already received some excellent advice from our fellow forum posters. Such as the guidelines are in the Boy Scout Handbook, Advancement Manual, and the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. Here are my thoughts. You had asked if there are guidelines accepting the completed project and also what is the minimum for a project. There are no concrete guidelines for judgment that is provided by National. (At least I have not seen any national evaluation form to accompany the service project workbook) In the workbook there are a request for the Eagle Scout candidate to report how many hours and the names of the service project participants. Now I (Crew21 Adv), interpret the absolute minimum to be more than 2 hours and lead more than 2 other people to satisfy the minimum. Honestly, a Scout cannot control how many volunteers assist in his project. They can invite, they can feed their workers, they can even entertain their service project workers with movies, ballgame tickets, video games. But they cannot make their fellow scouts volunteer. As a future Eagle Scout, they will know how hard and difficult, or how easily they completed the Leadership Service Project. Also, as a few forum members have posted. There is a second portion to the Project workbook. Or the "back end" of the process. That is the documentation, report by the candidate, and the acceptance of the project. This requires the signatures of the Eagle Scout candidate, the Unit Leader (Scoutmaster, Coach, or Advisor), and the benefactor of the project. The Council/District Advancement Chairman only approves the project plan, but the Advancement Chair is not on the signature for project completion. Before the Eagle Scout Rank Application can be processed. The service Project must be completed. Also, you asked what the ASM can do in a case, when the SM does not take action. The ASM cannot endorse the Scout thru to the EBOR; however, an ASM may be an "interested party". Unfortunately, On the Service Project workbook and the Rank Application there is a signature block for the "Unit Leader", but not a signature block for the assistant Unit Leader. What can the ASM do? They can advocate for the Eagle Scout candidate, they can assist the youth, they can mentor the Scout, but I do not believe they can sign the workbook or application in the block of the Unit Leader. Finally, if the Scout does not receive the signature of the Unit Leader or a committee member on his application. He (or other interested party, i.e. ASM) may Appeal a Decision. They should appeal to the next level in ascending order, unit, district, local council and the the National Boy Scout Committee. Good Luck! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Fox and Fellow Scouters, Greetings! I think Fox got their answer. Totally different from this occasion, but I found it to be soooo funny. A few years ago, we had one forum poster. This forum poster asked if anyone could answer his question. All he wanted was just one answer. The question from a few years ago, was why that specific poster could not have an alternate lifestyle and still be a Scout Leader. He asked for just one answer and he would accept it. About 30 pages, maybe 40 pages of answers later, and he kept saying, "I don't accept your answer". Fortunately, I believe that forum poster only had one topic and was an active member of this forum for a couple of months. But watching that topic spread and discuss over the weeks was mostly hilarious and sometimes frustrating. All that to say.... For legitimate questions or discussions, such as fox's (and most all of us have questions or begin discussion topics). We should briefly empathize with the other party, consider the thoughts of the Scoutleader, parent, child, COR, Commissioner, and even the Scout professional. Just like many of you. Years ago, in a management class we would receive constant feedback. During a specific leadership course we were taught that it was not beneficial to argue over petty topics. So if the message receiver did not agree with the feedback. The recepeint would still have to say "Thanks for the Feedback" and continue on, either along the same agenda or adjusting their plan. Respect goes both ways. "You can get everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want. ~ Zig Ziglar Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

GT, Greetings! There are a few routes. Unfortunately, I do not have any of these sources infront of me right now (darnit). Online Advancements (which most councils have enrolled in) Offer a simple purchase list have the advancement report is electronically submitted. Most councils are asking their Units to register for Online Advancements. It doesn't cost a thing, and faster than sending the report to the registrar. There are a few downsides that need to be worked out though, Boy Scout ranks and some Venturing Awards require a Board of Review or Crew Review, and the BOR/CR members need to sign the advancement report. I believe most third party software offers a printed list, after the advancement report has been printed. And most of these third party softwares are compatible with Online Advancements (as requested by BSA when they purchase the Online Advancement contract). Finally, the paper triplicate copy of the Unit Advancement Report (BSA form 34403B). Has a purchase form on the back of the report (which needs to be filled in by the Unit). Although not electronic, it could provide a sample to create a local excel sheet. (Cut and pasting the five columns from the pdf file). On the backside of the Unit Advancement Report (not the online pdf file, from www.scouting.org/forms/34403.pdf only has page 1). But, on the actual triplicate form there is a white, yellow and pink copy. White and Yellow go to Council, Pink copy is retained by the Unit. I believe on the backside of the white copy is a purchase list and bin numbers for Cub Scout ranks and Boy Scout ranks. The Far East Council has the 1992 edition Troop 137 has a 1998 edition. http://www.fareastbsa.org/advancem.pdf http://www.troop137.com/pdf/adv_report.pdf Hope this helps! Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Crossramwedge, Greetings again! I think as Gunny and a few others have stated. It is an election by their peers, not by the adult Troop Committee. As a Scouting parent, it is easy for us to become concerned about our own child/children. As Scouting Adults, Scoutmasters, Assistant Scoutmasters, Troop Committee members, we need to be concerned with all Scouts and Arrowmen. (I'm right there with you as a parent and adult leader.) However, we should strive to assure that all eligible Scouts are recognized. and that they serve their Troop, Chapter and Lodge throughout their tenure. Not just "sash and dash" or easily fall into becoming a "flapper". In as much as we may, we should not be jealous over another Scout or someone else's son being elected. But hope that all our Scouts can benefit their Troop. All elections should be conducted by an election team from the Chapter or Lodge. The election team is trusted to assure it is a fair election. There is adult review included during these elections. If there was impropriety in election they would loose membership within their OA lodge. Believe me, neither youth or adult would want to be accused of improper elections and told to reliquish their lodge membership. That is why we have Fellowship weekends, Lodge Leadership Development, Conclave, and NOAC. So that our youth Arrowman can fully understand their responsibility. There is just no contesting a fair election. So it comes down to your son being appealing and receiving enough votes from the non-OA members of his Troop. As unpopular as it seems with many older Scouts. The older Scouts need to work use the EDGE model to teach and recognize the newest Scouts and promote the younger Scouts in rank. It is very easy to sit back and be a cool "Older teen", I've seen hundreds in camp if not thousands sitting back watching the Scout and Tenderfoot make mistakes, burn food, and always having "KP". If the older Scouts say "wash the dishes, put up the tents, clean the latrine". The older Scouts are not achieving a thing. It will be the older Scouts using EDGE to help their fellow Scouts advance in rank. As often as OA election teams attempt to brief the voting procedures. Many times the youth do vote just for the funniest or loudest Scout. But they fail to vote for all of the eligible and Scoutmaster nominated candidates. To the disappointment of a few good eligible candidates each year. There are only a few ways that the Troop Committee can assist. More specifically, printed ballots and a box of pencils. Some first year Scouts (ten and a half year olds) may not remember the names of all his fellow Scouts. Believe it our not, they will get tired of writing down names on a sheet of paper. If they are not loosing their pencil away to another Scout, they are having a hard time writing names on a small yellow sticky, while the sticky is on the ground or resting on their knee. Too place a check in the box takes little effort but to concur and vote. A ballot listing all the eligible and nominated Scouts with a check box or line next to their name. Enough "golf" pencils so they are not borrowing pens and pencils away from each other during the election. I guarantee you, the votes percentages will increase if the Troop makes it easier for the Scouts to decide and vote. My final recommendation, a full endorsement from the Scoutmaster. A Scoutmaster standing behind all of the candidates stating to the Troop that each are very deserving, and that the Scoutmaster would like to see all of the candidates be recognized by their vote. As the young 10.5 or 11 y/o Scouts vote. They will begin to understand the significance of the OA, they will remember who helped them with their advancements, they will see the names on the ballot, and they remember the Scoutmasters endorsement and they will vote for those Scouts they believe demonstrates the meaning of service to others. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Crossramwedge, Greetings! The great thing about the OA is that there are no secrets. As a parent, if you have concerns the Chapter and/or Lodge Advisor should be able to answer them. Take a look at the webpage www.main.oa-bsa.org There are election procedures and sample reports in the Guide for Officers and Advisors. The Advisors would usually attend unit elections with the Chiefs (either Chapter or Lodge). The Advisors entrust their Chiefs to correctly and fairly conduct an election and report the results appropriately. As an adult, You should be able to inquire with the Scoutmaster, the Chapter Advisor or the Chapter Secretary/Registrar (adult position). To answer your question "When does a boy find out if he has been elected for the OA? The Guidebook allows Scoutmasters to either state the results immediately after the election or the Scoutmaster may wait (usually till a Camporee "Tap Out" Ceremony). At least prior to the Ordeal weekend. The earlier the better, because the Scout and family should register independently for the Ordeal weekend (as patches, sashes, elangomats and grub need to be arranged). The youth do not travel to Ordeal as a Troop, but usually as an individual or maybe as an ad hoc patrol. Now, as an adult OA Arrowman. I have often scratched my head after witnessing elections. Saying to myself "What were they thinking?" I've seen elections where all but one receive enough votes. Also, I've seen 100 percent votes for all eligible arrowmen. Oddly, I have been there when none eligible broke the 50 percent of the votes (no one received enough votes to become arrowmen) Fortunately the Guide for Officers and Advisors allows for a second vote. And Sadly on a few occasions, I've seen twelve eligible Scouts in front of their Troop and only one Scout received enough votes and was elected, eleven other Scouts having to be told not to give up and continue on the Scouting trail. Since approximately '99, the elections procedures now allow even more members to be elected. I have seen OA election teams state that everyone eligible in front of them, may be elected. I've seen troops handing out printed ballots of OA eligible Scouts. I've also seen Scoutmasters give their personal endorsement by standing behind all the eligible Scouts and stating "All of these Scouts deserve to become Arrowmen, its up to your vote" (Similar to Scout Spirit, either the Scoutmaster give approval or does not approve) On a personal note, my oldest son was a Life Scout, 16 closing in on 17 when he was elected. My youngest son was elected at the age of 14. They were fortunately to be elected. While Scouts should understand the purpose of the Order of the Arrow and the election procedures. And further that the Arrowmen are elected by non-members. Each year, there are probably a few deserving Scouts, that are never elected to become Arrowmen during their youth or as a young Assistant Scoutmaster (till 21). Hopefully your son's hard work will be recognized by his fellow Scouts and he will become an elected Arrowman soon. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

OGE and Fellow Scouters, Greetings! One Summer I served a few weeks as the Camp Commissioner (and Deputy Program Director). During our morning general assembly, there we a lot of short jokes and wisecracks. We often would have Scouts receive mail thru out the week. Parents would usually send a post card or letter to arrive on Wednesday to say, keep up the good work, we miss you, etc. While not quite the same as an Announcement. We did have "MAILCALL" We usually received mail about 7:30 a.m., in our country roadside mailbox on the Postman's route. So we would conduct "MAILCALL!" during morning assembly and flag ceremony. One summer, we had one teenage handsome looking SPL, about 17 years old. This young man apparently had a big family, and probably a few girl friends. In addition to a hand full of mail every day (of their Troop's six day week). He would receive at least one box each day. On Thursday, he received a record five boxes "CARE packages" in the mail. The Staff would usually read the names of the girls sending the mail, occasionally sniffing the perfume that was sprayed on the envelope. The campers would ooooooh and aaaaaah, and laugh as we read off names of who sent the mail to this young man. Names like, Tiffany, Angel, Candy, Brooke, Ashley, Bubbles, whoooops Barbie. If this SPL didn't have that many girlfriends, he definitely had a mother and sisters with a hilarious sense of humor. Well, on Thursday, with all his boxes and mail, beyond what all the other fellow Scouts had received. We placed his in a wheelbarrow. As we were concluding the fun festivities of morning assembly and wrapping up the "mail call". Our smallest staff wheeled out the big wheelbarrow in front of the assembly to this older Scout. The Camp had a big laugh for a while that morning. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Pete, Greetings! I concur with Ed "epalmer". Neckerchiefs, bolos, or no neckerchiefs, it is the decision of the PLC. (as a leader, it probably should be brought up only once a year. Probably best during the annual planning conference, if the troop schedules a visiting Commissioner to conduct an inspection). It would be nice for the top uniformed Scouts earn a recognition. If it is a patch, pizza, ice cream sundae, whatever, but they should be recognized for complying with the PLC's uniform regulations. Fellow Scouters, The terms Class A and Class B are so well engrained. For years, I have agreed that we should separate Scouting definitions from military definitions. But (as far as terms and definitions) I am ready to throw in the towel. Maybe we should urge National to drop the terms field uniform and activity uniform; and urge National to adopt the terms Class A and Class B. It would just be easier for all to identify with. I don't think we should turn into a paramilitary organization, I am not recommending that. I am just exhausted from clarifying the Scout uniforms are not Class A nor Class B. Sorry for the rant. Just ready to throw in the towel on that topic. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

Dianna, Greetings! I have had the pleasure of working with many Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and recently Venturers over the years. If I may provide my thoughts and concerns Many adult leaders throughout all of the BSA programs see the leaders manuals; the Scoutmasters Handbook, the Cub Scout Den Leaders Handbook, Webelos Den Leaders handbook, the Troop Committee handbook as belong to the adult leaders of those programs. Some Venturing Crews believe the Venturing Leaders Manual may just be for the adult leaders. It is written for both the adult leaders and the crew officers. Just that most traditional Scouters, expect it to be an adult manual. Make sure your Crew and Crew Officers possess a few copies of this manual. Just like in the Boy Scout program, each unit should issue their SPOL an SPL handbook, and their Patrol Leaders handbooks to the PLs, there should be one copy of the Venturing Leaders manual for each Venturing Crew Officer. Also, One of the methods of Scouting is Adult Association. "The youth officers lead the crew. The officers and activity chairs work closely with adult Advisors and other adult leaders in a spirit of partnership. The adults serve in a "shadow" leader capacity." But on occasion Crew Committee members fail to read the description of the Advisor in the Venturing Leader manual. Bolded "The Advisor is the Key adult Leader and is responsible for training crew officers".... "The ultimate responsibility for the crew rest with the Advisor" not bolded "As the primary adult leader, the Advisor sets the tone for the Crew, models the desired form of leadership, and helps the officers and members become the leaders of their own crew". Quite often, with our youth's busy lives. School, sports, youth employment jobs, prepping for college. I get very little but precious time from my Venturers. Venturing Meetings usually assist the Crew to prepare for Crew Activities. Sometimes involving money, time, or distance from the hometown. This does require a little more than 5 minutes of leadership. Unfortunately, on occasion I lose a few Venturers thru the year. My Venturing Officers and Crew members may desire to be an Activity Leader in the beginning of the school year, only to be caught under a mountain of homework or endless sports practices. Eventually, some of these youths do not attend during the month of their activity. Hopefully, they do tell me that they are not able to attend or fulfill their obligation. So during the beginning of the school year. I always tell my Venturers Officers, it is either you lead or I will lead. If you are ready to lead an activity then please take it from me. The more you talk, the less I talk. I would rather be drinking my coffee, and come in at the end of a meeting for an "Advisor's Minute", but that is up to them if I speak for one minute or longer. (Understand that this isn't a "hostile take over", but more of just telling them to take charge of activity, plan, lead, promote, and execute the entire event, register and complete all applicable paperwork and forms, so that I can just sit back and enjoy a Venturing Activity) The youth enjoy socializing, sometimes the Crew Officers or Activity Leader can get very sidetracked. On occasion, I need to take control of a meeting again and get the Crew back on track. So after about 45 minutes of who's dating who, and who just got dumped who; Mr Crew21 Adv will cut in and say "Hey, I guess transportation will take care of itself this weekend?", "I guess the climbing wall will know we are coming by mental telepathy?", and "Oh yeah, we do have some planning to finish, eh?" Also.. I constantly remind them, a Crew event is from the time we depart the parking lot till we return. It is not just 2 hours at a location 300 miles from here. That the planning encompasses that whole period. They are eager, but still youth officers. So the Crew Officers do need some adult association in planning a complete event. So I would advise Dianna, hopefully all your Crew Officers do have the Venturing Leaders Manual (and read it cover to cover). I would offer that your Advisor adopt a policy similar to mine. "Either the Crew Officers lead, or the Advisor will lead". The more the Crew Officers do for the Crew, the less your advisor will do. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv

DBC, Greetings! To throw out a few ideas... (if you are not doing this already)... and this is how we handle this issue in our Troop. "Lead by Example" If all of your adult leaders are wearing their complete uniform. The boys may follow suit. We have approximately 12 uniformed adults. During opening and closing we probably have the largest patrol lined up to the side. If that doesn't work. Get the newest boy patrol uniformed along with the adults. Our junior patrol has constantly earns the "Pizza patrol" about once a month, during patrol corners. mmmmmmm, Delicious! Finally, we're disappointed when the boys don't wear their uniform. Oh well, we (the Troop leadership) can survive. But for our BORs, we expect the advancing Scout to arrive in complete uniform. They have been told this over and over. You should see boys/parents buying socks and belts in our Troop store, minutes before their BOR. Sometimes they have to borrowed uniform items from their patrol mates to go into their BORs. So the parents also (once in a few months) know and understand our Troop desires to see their Scout in uniform and a uniformed Troop. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv