Crew21_Adv

mmcnulty,

Greetings!

You've probably heard the old quote, "Money is the root of all evil".

At least it is the cause of many arguments, from homes, to city councils, to congress, and even BSA Packs, Troops and Crew Committees.

The unit Committee and Treasurer should be good stewards of the Scout's money and should use the monies towards the benefit of the Pack (Troop or Crew). But the way that unit committees arrange and spend their budgets varies from unit to unit.

Some years ago, our Number 1 popcorn seller of the year (the young man did a tremendous job, with alot of parental help too, and sold about 3 thousand dollars worth)decided he wanted to move to another pack (less than a mile away) where his best friend from school participated.

It took a committee decision, and we rested at that, final, no more discussion. We handed a check for 1,500 to the other units treasurer. It caused a few hurt feelings in our Pack, a few committee members didn't think we should have voted on a refund or portion refund. It caused a few hurt feelings at the other Pack, they wanted the full amount of the boys efforts 3,000. And the parents were disappointed too.

Maybe it took about 3-4 months, well into Summer Day Camp to get over the mutual hurt feelings. But our Packs eventually became friendly and cordial again.

So.. You're not going to really find a roadmap or written guidance on how to distribute funds. Though, you will receive alot of advice.

Your pack's fund raising and dues where established for benefit of the Pack, correct? Then make the best decision that would benefit the entire pack.

A Scout is brave. At some point the Committee Chair may need to defend the committee's decision from criticism.

Now, on a side not. During NLE there is a topic, How Scouting is Funded, some new leaders just do not know where the money comes from or money earning project worksheets. Again it is advice, but we recommend to Cub Scout leaders to allow second-year Webelos to commit Fall fundraising events to the Pack (hey Webelos activity pins are the most expensive advancement item on the advancement report/purchase order). But we recommend any Winter-Spring fundraising by the 2nd year Webelos (i.e. Scout show ticket sales) be allotted towards the receiving Troop. Again, this is a unit committee decision. But it would certainly help offset the cost of a first year Scouter, first Summer camp experience.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

If I may explain my experiences with the OA sash.

I've traveled to a few councils over the years. At a few councils we wore the Sash not only during OA ceremonies and Ordeal weekend. But also for the work weekend. It was a sign of pride to have a dirty sash with sweat, dirt, and dried mud. (It shown how much service you provide to the camp and council).

At other councils, all the sashes were pristine heavenly white (looked like a detergent commercial) and bright glowing red arrow. Then, Myself wearing my dirty sash to the annual OA banquet, I looked like I came out of the wilderness or a cave.

Then in yet another council in frequent colder weather, we wear the sash when we wear our field uniform (aka class A); but (optional for the wearer) most will wear the sash on the outside of their red jackshirt.

So, after seeing a few different methods (legal or not so legal) of wearing the OA sash. I arrive in the parking lot of my local Summer Camp, throw my sash over my last years camp T-shirt, grab the work gloves and go strolling into camp towards the Quartermaster shack. Not far from the parking lot I heard the OA Lodge Advisor yelling, "Hey, Crew21 Adv!" "How you doing?" "C'mon over"

This was just a few years before the webpages Scouter.com or oa-bsa.org FAQ pages existed. My Council's OA Lodge Advisor didn't have the Insignia Guide, but he had the OA handbook. He showed me where it stated, the OA sash should be worn only over the field uniform and Indian regalia. (No one yet in this discussion has stated it can be worn in the Indian regalia, elangomats, or the principle characters). I always thought wearing the sash over the T-shirt during camp work weekends (not the Ordeal weekend) was acceptable.

Whoa.. What an awakening, I had read the OA handbook a few times, and never paid much attention to that page. I'm not pointing the fingers at any fellow Scouts and saying they wear their sash inappropriately. But that is when I learned that I should not wear it in T-shirt.

As far as being legal. Hey, I wear a legend on my sash, but its sewn on the inside, behind the red arrow, facing towards me. I guess I break the written "Insignia Guide" rules too. So, I don't run around shaming people wearing the sash with their T-shirts or polo shirts(similar to adults wearing the Wood Badge beads in their T-shirts or polo shirts).

I now have about three sashes. One pretty dirty which is on my office Scouting memorabilia shelf. One for regular outdoor OA event wear, and one for indoor OA ceremonies and events.

So, look briefly in the Insignia Guide to see what is says. But look further into the OA Handbook about when and where (and specifically on what uniform/regalia) it can be worn.

WWW

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

weasel99,

Greetings!

You've already received some excellent advice.

The great part about Scouting, is that we can take boys with different backgrounds, different family incomes, different religions, and different heritages and they can look beyond those topics and make a patrol and troop thrive.

Similarly the Troop Committee, the adults (with various backgrounds, ethics, skills, management/employee experience, and etc) come together with a few different ideas, but should have one goal (or maybe two goals), make the troop succeed and support the Scoutmaster.

When Scouts disagree, they seem to get over it in a matter of days. Rarely do they hold long grudges. But when adults disagree, it sometimes completely destroys a Pack, Troop or Crew.

I would bet, the Committee Chair is/was the right person for the job at the right time. Probably the only parent that stood up, and said she would take the reins, when someone needed to.

But, I would also expect, we may get a little complacent with our jobs from time to time.

Possibly, it may be the season for rotating your entire committee? Swapping your Committee Chair to another less demanding position; and moving an eager, one minute manager/administrative guru into the Committee Chair position.

Since it sounds like your COR/IH are happy with their passive troop membership. (I've met a few good people, but passive as CORs/IHs) As church pastors or youth group leaders, most don't mind making a statement within their troop once a decade or so.

If they were active COR/IHs(some are extremely active with their troop/pack/crew), they would select the best person for the job and when needed; remove, replace or shuffle committee positions.

The COR/IH would probably ask themselves (and their mentors) What is best for the Troop? Is it better to have a smaller Troop? If we reshuffle, who will become the new CC?

The lack of leadership for a committee is a "no go". No matter how little a COR/IH participates, they will not remove leadership without a sufficient replacement.

I would wager, even if the COR/IH at your local church does not have a good grasps of whom is in charge and what is going on, their first question would be.

Who do you plan to exchange and whom would the Troop Committee like to see as the Committee Chair?

Then, would your nominated replacement improve things? or make them worse? or create a different set or issues?

If you (or a few committee members) are seeking to remove a committee chair. Then you may have to answer these questions, before you go asking your COR/IH to make a decision.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Click23 and Fellow Scouters,

Concur with dg98adams, I think completion of the Hazardous Weather is a requirement for submitting a tour permit, and actually a printed checkbox on the newest tour permit form.

Hazardous Weather has always been a discussion during my districts IOLS/OWL/BALOO course. We relay real life experiences which have been spoken about in the news over the years. About a tornado going thru the Scout building, about amputated fingers due to frost bite, about the exhausted driver (and van full of Scouts) crashes, the lost Scouts which wonder away from the campsite, about the drownings when SSD is not complied, and etc. During our outdoor courses, we discuss the worst things that have happened, (the death of a Scout/Scouter) and what planning (specifically weather avoidance) could have happened to prevent it.

So I'm glad to see some new courses (or old courses) going online.

Other new courses coming out; For those of us that train and/or comment at Roundtable, watch for the new "What is Scouting" to replace New Leaders Essentials.

A few friends have asked at our Roundtable, does that mean they have to go thru the NLE/"What is Scouting" again.

My immediate (but not authoritative) answer was, "No, not yet". It is expected to be the same as NLE (or the What is Cub Scouting, What is Boy Scouting and What is Venturing factsheets), but just a different name and online. Good training, but I bet it will only be a refresher of NLE. However, brand new Scouters should enroll for all these courses prior to our district's semi-annual outdoor courses.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CubsRgr8,

If I can offer my opinion and ideas.

I tell my Arrowmen that essential the OA is about two things, providing service to our fellow Scouts and having fun.

Fun is pizza, ice cream social, bowling, movie night, video game night, etc.

If the Arrowmen are busy with school commitments, sports or etc. Not a problem. But, if they are sitting on the couch playing video games when the chapter/lodge needs them. Oooooh, shame on them. I also expect that most of our Arrowmen do not have a drivers license, so they rely on their parents or older siblings to drive them to OA events (or elections). Maybe a parent (who is also an Arrowman) will find the time and make the drive. But, I just don't expect a regular Scouting parent to drive an Arrowman to an election on another Scouting night.

I think we all (Arrowmen) give in to bribery. Some Scouts will do it for candy and rootbeer. Some adult Arrowmen will drive for patches. Although, as Arrowmen we should strive for service, sometimes there is a "What's in it for me?"

I would say you did great by bringing pizza to the roundtable; it probably stirred their interest, while satisfying their teenage stomachs.

Here are my ideas...

I would recommend more food for the youth arrowmen and more patches for the adult (Arrowmen/parent) drivers. Just what you've already done, maybe a little more to it. Or, Possibly a bench mark of 4-5 elections to earn a special OA patch? It will satisfy some of their "what am I getting out of this?" need. Tell them (and their parents) via email, not that you need only one or two, but you need all the Arrowmen from the chapter to be at the elections. (Arrowmen and teenagers love to talk and shoot the bull. They may become board if it is one or two of them, but get a crowd of Arrowmen around, they'll be talking about girls and video games. ).

Send email reminders (to the youth and their parents) about the upcoming elections, location, evening, and time, include a rendezvous point if they need transportation. That way they will get the info, no excuse for not knowing about elections.

It won't necessarily satisfy the need. But at least they know, they've been bribed, there's an incentive, and the election is where all the cool guys will be. Why not show up and conduct an election?

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I appreciate MileHighScouters initiative. To open a discussion and dialogue about Health and Safety.

But other than his own statement about his background of being the chair District Training Committee and training Health and Safety courses and all other Boy Scout Training. We don't have many other credentials, no one else to vouch for MileHigh's "Get the right info" or get out straight answers.

Most of us on the Scouter.com forum have read and re-read the G2SS, for years. I personally have three current copies in my Troop briefcase, Venturing briefcase and District Training material, and have probably 20 previous editions on my office shelves. So I expect many of our fellow forum members have the same concern of delivering a safe program and have read and studied the literature (and probably have a Scouting library that puts mine to shame).

Again, I appreciate MileHighScouter's initiative, but if he stated that he served on the National BSA Safety committee to write and update the G2SS, this would come with more credibility. That is where the straight answers should come from, from the committee members that wrote the book.

About the G2SS, I've often thought that BSA was absolute with certain statements and purposely remained vague on other topics for certain reasons. (i.e. sometimes stating should, recommended, encouraged, rather than stating must, shall, will)

I myself don't have a problem quoting the G2SS, but I don't tell my fellow Scouters to come to me for the straight answers. I do tell my friends that I have alot of Scouting experience, but I use the common reference "I'm a jack of all trade, but a master of none". I tell my Scouting friends; certainly, come to me for an opinion, or come to me to see what the literature says. But I don't interpret what is written (or what is unwritten) as the straight answer.

I do respect MileHighScouters experience, but it will be a while before I trust everything he says as the absolute straight answer instead of representing his opinion.

Maybe this thread should have been originally titled, "Health & Safety and Training - Let's discuss it" instead of " Health & Safety and Training Questions - Get the right info"

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

numbers123,

Greetings!

Pretty good letter to your 2nd year Webelos parent!

Mile High Scouter has already commented on certain martial arts, about the only edition you may really want to change.

I would add early, to ask for a "buy in" from parents. i.e.

Here is a trail for all our Webelos to follow.... Here is what is need to earn the Webelos Rank... Additionally, here is what is needed to earn the Arrow of Light... and If you want to earn all the Webelos activity pins (sometimes nicknamed a Super Webelos or Summit Award) here is what is need to earn all the activity pins.....

Also.. maybe you can add your own disclaimer... if a Webelos cannot attended events due to sports, etc. that you will accept other events (in lieu of) that they can demonstrate or email to you, and their Scout's honor.

Years ago, my final year in Cub Scouting, I had eight Webelos and a great Webelos Assistant Den Leader. Only six of the eight earned their Webelos Rank and Arrow of Light. Only four bridged into Scouting. A great bunch of boys, but just a few had other events, clubs and sports. Good young men, but as lenient as I could be, two were just not going to earn their Webelos badge or AOL.

So even if it is just you and your son, or you, your son and another Webelos. Keep pushing on, holding regular schedule den meetings, meet all the objectives and have a great Webelos Year with a large den or a small (but close) den.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

mmhardy,

Within our troop, the views about "Replacements" and "Band of Brothers" kinda ebbs and flows each year. The adult leadership tries to help assist with perspectives and views, and eliminate negative stereotyping.

During PLC meetings as we plan for the Webelos visits, we attempt to humanize them to the older boys (aka Band of Brothers).

On our annual planning calendar, specifically for during the visit, we plan a Webelos friendly events that they will enjoy and talk about for months. We partner up one older boy with one Webelos for the night, they have to tell everyone their names and their favorite hobby. We have a title for the invitation night and specifically tell our Venture Patrol to "Hug-a-Webe".

To continue to humanize the Webelos and brand new first year Scouts; thru the middle of the school year coming up on Christmas Break, January and February, during our monthly PLCs, (our adults hopefully think we know our boys and are close to speaking their lingo) we remind our Scouts that just a couple of years ago, they (our 13-14 y/o's) were a bunch of "dorks" always bumping into everything. We further remind our (middle age 13/14 yo) Scouts, if they want to continue washing dishes and doing KP for the patrol, then they can scare off all the 1st year Scouts and we will just have a "Band of Brothers". Or.... They can embrace the 1st year Scouts as someone that should learn proper hygiene, proper cooking procedures, and also that a Scout is helpful, friend, and clean. These 1st year Scouts are perfect for doing the meal prep, cooking, and even KP. Does it get any better than this?

Thru reminding them what they went thru, our 13/14 yo Scouts realize they were just like those 10.5 yo Webelos/New Scouts a few years back. And that another Star, Life Scout had taught them Scouting skills. That these Webelos/New Scouts, while younger can still be fairly cool (and fun to watch do KP).

The Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters know, that any 10.5 year old Scout doesn't want to be just like us, middle aged men. They really, really, really want to be just like that 14 yo Star Scout or 15 yo Life Scout.

Our annual program that is negotiated with the whole troop, includes progressive events tailored for bridging new Scouts (or recruiting 12-17 y/o just joining), as well as tailored advancement programs for the T-1 and L-E.

Sure. We have some small attrition from sports, parents, moving homes, homework, girlfriends, etc. But the last reason is from our program and "Replacements" "Band of Brothers" view.

How does our current Scouts feel about the Replacements? They kinda like someone, looking up to them, following them like a puppy dog.

Hopefully with some Scoutmaster guidance, your PLC can develop a more beneficial view and eliminate the Replacements - Band of Brothers or "Us vs. Them".

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

bdjvegas,

Greetings!

Well, without splitting hairs. It is not an official patch, and is not manufactured by the BSA (or any other country Scouting association).

Here is my opinion.

I attribute to a similarity of the movie "Office Space" and wearing the fifteen pieces of flair.

Some may say the gentlemen in Scouting magazine is just in the wrong.

Some Scouters may say he is adorning his uniform with a modification. Still, others may say that he is bragging (since he may already have earned and wear the beads, why have another patch that says the same thing?). But most of us brag on our own accomplishments sooner or later.

I would not state he is "just in the wrong". I wouldn't place that patch on my uniform shirt; but, hey, I'd happily put it on my vest or poncho.

I personally like to show off a patch that I've earned every once in a while; not only to brag, but to also encourage youth and adults to participate and receive a similar patch.

So back to splitting hairs..

Is this patch official? No, It is not official. Can it be worn after completing a wood badge ticket? I say, why not? Is it just wrong? Technically and by the insignia guide, inspection sheet and uniform police, yes. But, by common practice, "naw" (no, not really).

If you want to be an absolute role model and by the book, then don't wear it! If you want to be a little risque and live on the Scouting edge a little, sew it on!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Karen_216,

I dont see any problem. The car was within weight and dimension standards.

Did it pass registration?

If the wood made it heavier, yes, that would be an issue. But it was weighed within standards, correct?

Regarding, questioning methods to enter cars into a Pinewood Derby....

The best I ever heard was a hollowed out car, which had a liquid test tube inserted into the length car. The fluid would gravitate towards the front giving an additional pulling weighted start, but on the straight away the fluid in the test tube would level out maintaining a consistent cruising speed. I would like to have seen it in race, the mental image seems like it would win.

Back to this shiny car, possibly of another wood, Maybe the other parents/den leaders were just jealous?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Astroscouter,

Greetings!

There is not really a board for the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. There are four signatures. The Scoutmaster, Coach or Advisor; a unit Committee Member; a Religious institution, School, Community (benefactor); and the Council or District Advancement Committee Member. Those are individual signatures, not the signatures of all the members of an EBOR. The EBOR will either advance or not ready for advancement on the Advancement Report.

You asked if denials can be appealed. I don't really believe this is a denial, however the project workbook was not endorsed by the four mandatory signatories. As stated in the workbook You may proceed with your leadership service project only when you have, Completed all the above mentioned planning details, Shared the project plans with the appropriate persons, Obtained approval from the appropriate persons

An Eagle Scout project, is usually not shot down but revised to satisfy the plan in the workbook, communications, leadership and safety. It may not be endorsed if it appears to not satisfy the Originality, Limitations or Size. Most all of the members of the district and council will attempt to side on the side of the Scout, but after the same minimum requirements are met.

For example, a personal story just a few years ago. I know of a young man, Eagle Scout, now in college, but his first draft Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project was to obtain IPODs, load them with music, and create an ipod library for a local military hospital. Great idea, great draft, but he didn't plan it all the way thru.

Just within our own Troop, our Committee Chair asked the Life Scout, how are you going to obtain all the IPODs you want?, he didn't think about that. The Chairman asked, who is going to load the music?, he planned on teaching and leading the Scouts how to. The Chair asked to confirm, that all the music will not be have explicit lyrics, correct?. He was planning some current pop music that is explicit rated. The Committee Chairman informed him that this was a stopping point. That the 10.5, 11 year old Scouts are not going to place explicit lyrics and music onto ipods. Then the big kicker, The Committee Chairman asked him how he was going to purchase all these songs? His plan was to illegally download them. The committee chair reached another stopping point. These songs and pop music have royalties; they need to be paid for before he created a library.

The original idea was great. The plan was really lacking any thought. Just within our own community and troop, the committee chair never denied his project. But did inform him that it had to comply with the law, and also had to respect the wishes of the Scouting parents (that their young Scouts would not be exposed to explicit lyrics), as well as showing communications, leadership, and service. He withdrew his Eagle Scout Service Project.

The Committee Chairman and Scoutmaster never shot down his original project. It was a great original idea, but it took nearly 20 minutes to explain to him what is legal and what is illegal (downloading and stealing music), then another 10 minutes to explain to him what is moral and immoral (exposing young scouts to explicit lyrics that their parents dont want them to hear or experience yet). The Life Scout never returned that project workbook with any editing to meet the requirements stated in the workbook. Even though some older teens listen to explicit "hip hop" or even some of the parents may enjoy it, it never really struck him that 11 year old Scouts really should not be exposed to explicit lyrics.

Nearly a year later he submitted a different project which demonstrated leadership, planning and communications, and was quickly signed for approval to conduct the project.

To make a long story short (I know, too late). It may not be that "local Eagle Review board" shot down the Life Scout in your Troop, but that they want leadership, communications, and planning. Which is what the project workbook calls for.

Regarding the Red Cross Blood Drive. Red Cross Blood Drives have always been a great way to serve the community. I praise them for what they do, and any Scout/Scouter whom donates.

Even if it is a Red Cross Blood Drive, maybe there is more that the Scout can do during the blood drive, some additional details that show work, service, communications and leadership(maybe food pantry can drive, or an orphanage toy drive along with the Blood drive) to demonstrate leadership.

Although I previously lived near a metropolitan area, where the Red Cross offered many services, but did not conduct blood drives. The only community Blood Drives were conducted by the city's Blood Bank, which was a commercial business and sold their blood supplies to the local hospitals for profit. Eagle Scout Projects which donated to the city's Blood Bank rarely were allowed to proceed.

There has always been an audience that are sympathetic to the need and a few donors, but it would depend on the day of the drive how many eligible donors actually donated.

Without mass advertising (which we have today), the trip to set up a donor center, may not have been worth the effort. Not too long ago, the Red Cross would probably have done better just at their own metropolitan Red Cross office or at the major hospital. But possibly since 9/11, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, hurricane Katrina (and other natural disasters), tornadoes spinning thru the Midwest. In addition to the mass media advertisement, video posting, you tube, email, blogs, myspace, facebook, etc. The need for advertising a Blood Drive has become easier.

If anyone looks at the Red Cross webpage, under Host a Blood Drive, there are only three sponsors responsibilities. Even Red Cross says it is simple, "Why do organizations sponsor drives? Because it is both a simple and a powerful way to serve your community..." After the three responsibilities of the sponsor "The Red Cross does the rest".

Red Cross also provides a planning chart/checklist. http://www.givelife2.org/sponsor/checklist.asp

Possibly, ten years ago and greater. There was sufficient planning and leadership for a Life Scout to conduct a Red Cross Blood Drive. But now, Red Cross does most all the work, planning, and leadership. A Life Scout can almost just stand there and an Eagle Scout "Red Cross Blood Drive" Leadership Service Project will conduct itself, which usually does not satisfy the advancement requirements.

So.. Even if your council allowed for appeals for project workbook approval signatures. I would expect a Council Executive board, or a review board would uphold the position of the project workbook signatories.

I personally love service projects that are unique, meaningful and leave a lasting impression. But I am happy with basic service projects which meet the basic requirements of the project workbook. Hopefully the Life Scout in your troop can draft a service project which meets all the requirements, either tremendous leadership or still just leadership.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

AlabamaDan,

Greetings!

If I may offer my opinion.

A few of our fellow forum members have offered some great comments.

His application for membership has been accepted and processed by your pack and the local council.

So in my opinion, he is still a Cub Scout till he ages out. He is still eligible to earn activity pins and compass points. Still eligible to earn belt loops, Still able to recieve a few other recognitions and more. But base on his own declaration, he will not be eligible to earn Webelos Rank, Arrow of Light or Bridge over to Boy Scouts.

If he is ready to declare any belief. Animist to Yi Guan Daoist, then he may earn Webelos Rank, Arrow of Light Award and bridge over to Boy Scouting.

I personally would not eject him from the pack. He may have fun with his friends; but his advancement trail will end, based off his own choice.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Seagull99,

Aloha!

Like I said. Sorry that your cable box was not working, I guess there was no homework from missing school or books to read for his English class. Maybe some merit badge pamphlets to read thru.

But, sitting on the moped would have been better for the customers inside the drug store and video rental store.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Dan,

Greetings!

My friends joke about my shirt looking like my shirt being similar to a "Field General". I joke back stating, "Hey, most of these are training knots. If your trained, and the boys are advancing, the knot requirements are almost done."

I have met a few Scouters friends that make my training achievements appear minor. They kinda walk around humble, but you can see an halo of Scouting around them.

Still I have a few friends that have some prestigious Scouting accomplishments and recognitions. Though they don't seem to know too much about Scouting, they are willing to learn and read about advancement requirements and current policies.

There are some Scouts out there whom have earned some unique and prestigious recognitions; but it just didn't have the significance to them. Possibly, his achievements and recognitions just are not or were not memorable to him. Their achievement and subsequent recognition, just didn't have the same value that we may place on those achievements.

Some Scouters. Whom these recognitions just were not memorable, may not share a common knowledge of Scouting or a recollection of their own participation. It may have been a foggy haze, and they may need to be reminded about what they experienced. (i.e. Wood Badge for the 21st Century final lesson is where they "tie in" the events of the week to the five principles. Some students may enjoy them as separate leadership skills, but not seeing them as building upon each other or a tiered approach to reinforce newly learned skills).

For example. Some Arrowman see their Ordeal as an honor, opening the door into leading their troop, and serving their fellow Scouts, they are truly excited about it. Some other Arrowman see their Ordeal as a day of work, glad its over, what's next, and when can they attend the ice cream social.

So, skipping past your questions 1 and 2, and cutting directly to question 3. If he is trained and doing a good job as a Den Leader, I would just accept his recognitions. Probably take it, that his recognitions just didn't have the same significance to him, as others value them. Possibly, it just wasn't that memorable.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

pjstorer,

Greetings!

Yes, its fairly common and acceptable. Similar to NYLT, VLSC and KODIAK. A unit may offer a Scoutership.

During Roundtables, I try to keep it short and say. "If you want your best troop, send your adults to Wood Badge, and send your SPL and Patrol Leaders to NYLT."

Back to your question, Yes, its fairly common and acceptable, but it is an annual committee decision. (I personally always hate the statement "we did it last year". If they keep doing things the same way each year, the committee will usually consider it a rubber stamp process and not to be voted on. Though most Troop Committees are usually in unison and share the same train of thought. The committee (Pack, Troop or Crew) is entrusted to be good stewards with their Scouts and families unit finances and best use the general funds each year.

Some years, a unit which is doing well with the funds, sends everyone to Wood Badge Paid in Full. Other years, they may consider the funding request; but decide not to pay, mainly due to the lack of operating funds and meeting other financial commitments throughout the year.

I would expect the most common practice is a Scoutership, and the cost of Wood Badge (or other courses) is split (or a portion) between the unit and the learner.

You never really know. If a unit pays the full cost, a learner may either be complacent and possibly not complete their ticket. Or they may be diligent, accept every tool they are taught, benefit their Pack, Troop or Crew and earn their Neckerchief and Beads. But you can probably bet, if a learner pays a portion of the fee, the course may be just a little more tangible and they should take ownership in what they paid a portion of.

As for my troop, we offer two Scouterships each year, 100 Dollar to Wood Badge and 100 Dollars to NYLT. As for my family, I paid my own way, later paid for my wife to attend, years later I paid for my oldest son to attend NYLT, then later he attended Wood Badge. My youngest did split a Scoutership to NYLT with another Scout and we saved 50 Dollars.

Hopefully, your troop will consider a portion or even a full ride Scoutership for your Committee Chair and Scoutmaster. But even more, hopefully your Troop will benefit from the Troop Leaders attending Wood Badge.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SeaGull99,

Aloha!

You asked a few good questions...

Most of our fellow forum members have given you great answers. The Scoutmaster cannot deny rank, that is a Board of Reviews decision. Whom can you file a complaint with, the Troop Committee and the Chartering Organization. They are very willing to listen to both sides, and provide their best judgment.

Similar to you asking for advice. Not all Scoutmasters are perfect. Maybe he or she may need advice from fellow Scoutmasters and Commissioners as well. Maybe they are justified in their reasoning, or maybe not and they could be doing Scouts a disservice.

Similar to small claims court, rather than placing blame on the Scoutmaster or your son. You may have to mutually ask the advice of a third party to act as a mediator., to determine if your son is ready for a Scoutmaster conference or not yet ready for a conference.

Regarding your third question.

Who wants the flu? I would support you that the parents of Scouts would not desire their son to become ill. But equally, I sometimes patronize Blockbuster or other video rental outlets. I doubt the customers would want to become ill either. I would call going to the Doctors office an errand. I might even stretch it by seeing you at a Longs Drug store. But, sorry, going to a movie rental outlet with a child suffering from the flu, and the cable box is not working; I would not call that an errand, that was for pleasure.

Your son's Scoutmaster was disappointed with your son lack of attendance at TLT. But, it is speculation that the Scoutmaster will deny his Scoutmaster Conference until after your next Court of Honor.

Could be that is his intention, or possibly not. The Scoutmaster may not be available. Scoutmaster conferences usually grow in time, along with the Scout. When they were joining as an 11 year old, they are discussing the importance of Scouting, the Law and the Oath. Most 11 year old brains have a difficult time digesting what all this means so a Scoutmaster Conference may be 1-2 minutes for an 11 y/o. But by the Star rank, the previous brief conversations may have lengthened to become 15-20 minutes of heartfelt discussions.

I know our Scouts are told to approach the Scoutmaster and establish a time. Either they ask early during the troop meeting for an appointment on another evening that week; or contacting the Scoutmaster and asking for a conference during the troop meeting.

No Scoutmaster would want to inhibit a Scouts advancement that is ready. Most all Scoutmasters are very patient, but they too can have busy schedules like us, or limited time on their daily planner. They too may have to schedule a Scoutmaster Conference for a later time. Some Scouts wait until after the meeting, till late in the evening while everyone is heading to their homes or vehicles to ask the Scoutmaster for a 15-20 minute conference.

I don't know what your son has asked his Scoutmaster, but maybe he should ask, "exactly when can I soon schedule a Scoutmaster Conference?" Rather than possibly asking "Can I have a Scoutmaster conference right now?" Especially if it is an inconvenient time (i.e. dark parking lot with mom and dad sitting across the parking lot in their car, just immediately after a meeting).

Another few questions that the Scout may ask "What do I need to do, to prepare for the Scoutmaster conference?" or "What should I wear to the conference?"

Hopefully, if the Scoutmaster is stubborn, he(or she) will lighten up and assist your son. Equally if your son needs to demonstrate more Scout spirit, then he should read the beginning chapters of his Boy Scout handbook and prepares himself for Star Scout.

Good Luck to your son, hopefully he works hard as Patrol Leader and earns Star very soon!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

starwolfmom (Elizabeth),

Greetings again!

I would think very few BOR last 2 and 1/2 hours long. I can't call baloney, but its a tough bit to chew. As an adult who has sat on only a few EBORS, I doubt the board members could sit there longer than an hour.

Possibly the young man may have been exaggerating, because it seems like it goes on forever?

What I can offer....

The EBOR members will probably read over the candidates package that day/evening at the EBOR. Then they will probably read the letters, they may even discuss what their questions will be (most of the time, it is only to solicit dialogue with no right/wrong answer). But the board members should know what others will ask, so that member 4 doesn't have the same questions as members 1, 2, and 3, and has to think of a question on the spot.

While the young man is sitting outside, this pre-EBOR discussion may take 30 minutes. Then maybe up to 10 minutes of pleasantries and introductions when the Eagle candidate enters.

After 30 minutes of an interview and discussing, the Scout may have been at the board location for possibly an hour (but seem like 2-3 hours to a teenager).

Just like any interview, Scouting, college, community based organization, or job applicant; After the interview, the board members will discuss the answers, what they found profoundly interesting, could some youth ideas benefit Scouting, what answers they were surprised by and even what they found humorous. This post interview discussion by the board members could take 10 minutes or more. Then it is time to bring the candidate back in, to be told the results of the EBOR decision.

Yeah. It could seem like 2, 3, maybe 4 hours for a nervous young Life Scout. But the interview portion itself is normally 30 minutes.

Just for fun. Could you tell us (well really me) how long Matt's interview actually last?

Good Luck to Matt!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

mdkeplers,

Greetings!

Addressing your questions. Does he need to go through the SM/Eagle Advisor prior to contacting the senior home? Or is it ok for him go straight to the senior home and ask them for a "wish list"?

Personally, I don't see it as a problem to go to the benefactor and ask for a "wish list", caveat, with the knowledge that he may pursue another service project for another benefactor. That way, the senior home does not become disappointed with the local troop and council because a young scout defaulted on his offer to conduct a project.

Similar to what was stated by our fellow forum members...

In most councils and some troops, the advancement chair or Eagle Advisor or even the Scoutmaster may have a small list of worthy benefactors with potential "Eagle Service Project" rich environments. Or benefactors with a need, but no means (financial or material) to satisfy the need.

I have never seen any documentation stating that a thought or seed cannot be planted into the mind of a Life Scout. How he formulates the plan and carries it out is on the Life Scout. But learning about a potential need can really come from anyone, benefactor or advisor.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Kathy,

Greetings!

You've heard some great responses. OA is an honor society and Arrowman is an excellent title to be bestowed. Here are my thoughts regarding "what else might spark his interest".

There is leadership and service involved. There is camping and sometimes some more high adventure events. Those are the foundations of why we exists. But another selling point the the youth may really be interested in. The things that "spark" their interest, is a fun and social environment.

He may already hang out with friends in the troop. He may make more friends in the OA. He may be invited to staff summer camp. (Summer Camp Staff, after a long day of work enjoy pizza, ice cream socials and video games) He may get to "joke and coke" with the cool 16-17 year olds. Maybe even a few 18-20 year old "college age" ASMs working at Summer Camp.

I would expect, nothing is cooler to a 13 y/o Arrowman, than an 19 y/o acknowledging his presence and playing a video game with him.

If a newly flapped Arrowman just "sash and dash", then he won't get much out of our brotherhood. But if a new Arrowman participates, attends Chapter meetings, serves their troop, and serves their council camps, they will get a kick out of working along side some other really cool Arrowmen.

So bottom line. It is an honor to be elected into the OA. He will provide service to his fellow Scouts, and learn about leadership/followership and himself. But the spark may be in the fun he will have.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Narraticong,

Greetings!

I have seen and participated in a few Scouting events which have done this. Dividing normal patrols and creating new (camporee competition) patrols within the first few minutes of a weekend event.

I would state there are pro's and con's. But probably more cons, to the concept.

It is an attempt to equalize the playing field. If you have patrols of first year 11 y/o Scouts coming from one side of the council and patrols of 17 y/o's corn-fed mountain men coming from the other side of the council. But even more, it is meant to create new friendship and instantaneous teamwork, which it usually satisfies the friendship part.

As you stated sometimes these adhoc patrols disintegrate, but sometimes they participate throughout the entire weekend and enjoy themselves. (Of course, I've also seen a few normal patrols disintegrate during a camporee and competition).

Then again, I've known a few troops which could care less about the entire weekend. It was all about the post event tug of war, regardless about how much spin the Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters would put on the events and experience of the weekend. For months the boys would spend their school lunch time plotting tug of war strategies against their fellow classmates (but in different troops).

Per Roses and Thorns, or maybe stop, start, continue. Your district and council may ask is this the best way to create friends and equal the playing field? It works sometimes, but not all the time. There are a few other ways for districts and councils to create new friendships across the Scouts, without taking up the entire Saturday. Possibly the similar adhoc patrol events for Friday evening only, or Saturday evening scavenger hunt. And leaving the traditional patrols to compete during the Saturday events.

For the Scouts, did they make any new friends? or could they have used the opportunity to make new friends? Did they pick up any Scouting skills (or even see camping equipment or campsite arrangement) that another troop uses that may benefit your troop?

Hopefully the Roses and Thorns goes well, and if not this time, your patrols and troop, as well as your district and council and prepare themselves better for next years Klondike (or any other camporee).

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

New All Girl Crew,

Greetings!

Although I am not from the state of Ohio, it sounds like you do have a good start. I do not have suggestions or ideas for your local area, but I would like to offer comments about program.

What many of our peers would probably state, would be to have a program. Here are my thoughts....

For single day excursions you may be able to create a great program on your own. But for multiple days, if your local council does not have anything outside of the council camps, then fellow Scouters at your Roundtable may know of local outfitters which offer pre-planned and guided excursions, rental equipment, etc.

Always look to see if your program would satisfy advancement requirements (in the Outdoor Bronze and Ranger Award).

With 14 y/o girls (or boys), I would start with easier excursions, and conduct them monthly. I have fellow Scouters that believe each outdoor experience should be a high adventure and exhausting events (the boys usually go to their tents early when they're exhausted). Yes, some Scouts love the adventure and come back for more. Some other Scouts, after long hikes, scary rappelling, class 5 rapids, and bitterly cold rainy nights, may tolerate one or two campouts a year. So even for Venturers, you should want to offer something fun which keeps them returning for more.

So, for 14 y/o Venturers, make the program a memorable achievement which satisfies advancement. An excursion that they will remember, a program that they will achieve, and finally requirements (in six months to a year) they will achieve their Bronze Award or greater.

Good Luck to you and the Female Crew!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CNYScouter and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Skipping might be a good choice for a 4:30 ceremony. Other alternative choices could be an early departure for the Den or a late arrive for the Den.

But yes, 4 1/2 hours is too long for many boys (and even adults).

Here is my story....

When I was Cubmaster with my oldest son, I discussed and negotiated with my Den Leaders and assistants. We had celebrations, door prizes, gag gifts, take aways, and a brief guest speaker. There was something for everyone that came. But we did not have advancements that month.

Back then.. I would have the Den Leaders target rank advancement between November thru January, with arrowpoint, and compass points awarded January, March and April. I'd target March for Webelos Crossover, so they could register for Summer camp and get to know the troop, and we would target den "graduation" in May. Sure.. my plan never went exactly as I desired, and we always had a Cub receiving his rank before/after his fellow Cubs. But my fellow Cub Scouters listened to my annual schedule and concurred that it moved the recognition Pack Meetings along much smoother.

During regular Pack meetings. I negotiated with a fellow Scouter and friend. My fellow Scouter thought every boy should have their one full minute of fame. I somewhat agreed, but felt every boy should have 15 seconds of fame. Recognize them, high five them, cheer the den, and move 'em out. I also felt it was important for Den Leaders to hand out Awards, while I (as Cubmaster) handed out Ranks.

Having a scripted Pack Meeting and distributing the scripted agenda to my leaders, we kept the pack meeting just below an hour.

Then fast forward a few years, to when my youngest was in the Pack. I was Assistant Cubmaster then, and working for another Cubmaster. He was the emcee and ran the show. So I shared my concerns, but bowed out to his style.

Recently.. I spoke to a friend that is conducting a district wide event. I told him, there are many ppl (Scouters and parents) that have their opinion and ideas of how to run an event, but he is giving his time to run it. So, everyone should be thankful that he has it taken it on. Most all the participating Scouts and families will have the own opinion, but the Scouters will be (at least should be) thankful they didn't have to host an event.

All that to say....

Hopefully, negotiating a shorter agenda, or negotiating a dens arrival/departure time during the event, may still allow some of your Scouts to participate, without exhausting them thru a long drawn out evening. Also, it may be too late for this year, but possibly your pack leaders may negotiate a more reasonable rank advancement month. So the dens aren't pressured for the Blue and Gold ceremony.

Good Luck and Happy Scouting Birthday!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

starwolfmom,

Greetings!

We all need to vent sometimes, when policies and procedures become confusing, but I don't see (or read) a difficult issue.

Your son did limit himself by submitting his application hours before he turned 18. The application ask for references, but most councils ask for letters. An candidate does not have any real control over making other people sit down to a computer and writing a recommendation and filing out a form. That is why there is contact information for the reference on the application.

Most Troops and candidate families, keep in constant touch with the council service center to be sure all the documents are ready for an EBOR. (So, for the next few Eagle Scout candidates within your troop, recommend that they continue to track the preparation until the EBOR.)

Your son completed his requirement just hours before he turned 18.

Since the EBOR is after his 18th birthday, it will always be additional documentation to justify the late EBOR. (Some people may call this additional documents to be a small "problem" or huge "issue", but it is really synonymous.) The additional documentation or "issue" would have still occurred if he had the EBOR on the day after his 18th Birthday.

So now that you've vented (and its understandable to ask why? and is this correct?). It may have made the process quicker if you had kept up with all the candidate references, the council service center, and advancement chair. But now, your candidate should be ready.

So now, Go back to the Advancement Chair, and ask if everything is in order, and if you son is ready to proceed with this EBOR.

I'd expect your council advancement chair would request a statement about the delay in receiving referral letters, but your (son's) candidate's advancement requirements and application was completed when he was 17. It should be an easy enough to document. (Just additional paperwork though)

Good Luck to Matt on his EBOR!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Yes and No. After reading the post string asked by actipis, they have received quiet a few good answers, so I decided to post after John in KC's question.

I've posted before, my thoughts about Eagle Scouts, I praise the hard working and long suffering Eagle Scouts, but I am still happy to see an Eagle Scout just meeting the minimum and just earning Eagle.

Like a few fellow Scouters, I have worn and still wear a few Scouting hats. But I don't run the district, and the council camp is not named after me, so I try to keep my ego in check. The past few years I have moved from the council executive committee to the district committee which is also fairly well staffed. So I have friends that also wear the hat of Council and District Committee Chair, Trainers, Advancement Chair, Activity Chair, Membership, Fiance, etc. If they give me the floor, I'll tell them what I would like to see done, but I don't wear all those hats, and it is not my policy being established.

That being said. I have had a few spirited debates with a couple of members district committee and another on the council committee. I believe that ELSP leadership is very basic definition and very basic minimum is more than one Scout (leading two or more) and more than one hour of service (to make it hours). Both individuals (one on the district, the other on the council) share similar views, stating that they expects 1000 hours minimum. I can't tell them that their wrong (I'd rather tell them a few more things than that), but I can tell them that I am thankful they are not filling the position of district/council advancement chair and that they have other district/council responsibilities.

So. Back to John in KC's question.

Yes.. Some individuals in the district/council want a ridiculous amount of hours from each candidate. Thankfully they are not the advancement chair (neither am I), and they cannot mandate 1000 hours.

Yes. Our advancement chair does want certain things written into the ESLP. Most ESLP workbooks are sent to the district with short statement (such as, "my troop will work on the project"). Not much amplification, not much how it will be done. Sometimes, just reading it in black and white some projects do serious sound dangerous. (Hey, I've known an Life Scout and father hit and killed by a drunk driver while the troop was building a school bus stop on the residential side of the sidewalk.)

Safety (training, equipment, and transportation), adult leadership (YPT minimum), method of communications (how the youth will be led to work), and a draft schedule. The ELSP gets returned to the candidate if it doesn't even begin to describe how the candidate will address those topics. It is never a denial of the project workbook. The attempt is not to derail a Life Scouts agenda. It is to address similar issues as a tour permit. The Life Scout will have to consider safety, and leadership while they are amplifying their plans.

So yes. My district and council does quiet often return an ELSP to address (or amply) those four topics. But the district does not return an ELSP to add more hours to the planning/completion.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Again my opinion. But all Scouts should do their share to earn the merit badges. If is a long list of requirements over at least a 90 day period, or two hours of observation and writing a 200 word report.

So, This Trail to Eagle sounds intriguing. Bringing some experienced campers and merit badge counselors together with some Scouts (probably First Class thru Life).

Many councils have developed programs for First Class Advancement during Summer Camp. Or they adopted/mirrored a similar program from other councils.

A Trail to Eagle Summer program sounds great, hopefully the idea gets picked up across the BSA camping programs.

Personally, I have seen a few summer camps with a "High Adventure Trek" week for the older Life/Eagle Scouts. I have also seen a tailor made "Ranger Week" for Venturers to work on the Ranger Award (not too successful though). Good ideas. Those that attend the high adventure week do a few unique things, but don't earn a merit badge, don't even earn a 50 miler. It is a fun adventurous week, but no achievement, certification, or recognition afterwards. The Ranger Week (for the Ranger Award) just has not yet drawn individual Venturers to register for it. There is a recognition they work towards, but I have not seen any Venturers sign up for it.

Since the Nature of Leadership Kodiak course has debuted, I have advised that those councils use their "High Adventure Trek" or "Ranger Week" program to conduct a Kodiak course. Still I've hit resistance. So the Summer camps have a trek, with adventure but miss out on the opportunity to complete Kodiak at the same time.

All that to say.... A good unit program, and a good Summer camp program (call it Eagle Mill if you want) can allow a Cub, Scout or Venturer complete a few once in a lifetime achievements. If it is towards the Cub ranks, First Class Scout, Eagle Scout, or a Venturing Award.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv