acco40

Don't remove those patches, get a new shirt! Yes, adults should not wear youth rank insignia patches/badges. As for the trained strip, CaveEagle almost got it right. Think of a position patch and the trained strip as a unbreakable set. If you went through JLT as a PL - you may wear the trained strip with the PL position patch. If you become SPL, that is a different position, has a different position patch and you should not wear your trained strip with it until you get training in that position. CaveEagle got it right if the assumption that one is wearing the position badge of one's current position. Now, just because you are 18 - you may not be an adult in the eyes of the BSA. If you are in the OA - you are still considered a youth until 21. Same with Venture I believe. Therefore, you would NOT wear adult insignia on those uniforms. However, if your new position was with a BSA troop (CM or SA) you would be considered an adult.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Merlyn, in an underhanded attempt to get you to go after another sacred cow.... The U.S. Government, in the form of the judicial branch, sentences many "criminals" guilty of alcohol related offenses to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. One of the 12 steps that the A.A. uses is a belief that a "higher power" could restore their sanity and another step that one should make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand him. Still others "to admit to God ... our wrongs", "be ready for God to remove all of our defects of character", ask "Him" to remove our shortcomings", and "seek through prayer ... our conscious contact with God." . Now, wouldn't this be a case of the Government, in the form of judicial sentencing, discriminating against atheists? Go fight the good fight Merlyn!

Our troop had a COH this week. As SM, I have had the PLC become more involved in planning and carrying out the COH than what was done in the past. We now have Scouts present to their peers, rank advancement. For example, if a Scout has earned a rank, the presentation is made by a Scout of that rank or higher. Well after the meeting, I asked my oldest son (14 yr. old, Life Scout) if he thought it was better to have an adult or Scout presnet the rank awards. The boys seem to like doing the presentations (at least the presenters) but the recipients prefer that the awards are presented to them by the adults. I'll raise that at our next PLC.

Regardless of anyone's thoughts on Bob White's postings, to discuss his "disappearance" is fodder for gossip columnists, not this forum IMO. P.S. When I first saw the "disappearance" subject line I thought he may have been apprehended, lost or worse!

Last week, I asked the Troop QM and all of the individual patrol QMs to come to the CO building and help clean out our Scout closet. Low and behold I found a nice wooden board display, circa 1968 which had all of the merit badges, youth position patches and many adult position patches. Now, can anyone direct me to a web site that shows the official patches from this era? I've seen many commercial sites with patches for sale (ala eBay, etc.). I've come across some before but did not bookmark them. For example, one of the patches (rectangular) has a musical harp. I'm assuming that this is a youth position patch, but for what? I know it is not for bugler. Also, one of the merit badges has a V on the left, an X on the right and in the middle a vertical rod which the bottom is black and the top silver. At first I was thinking periodic table and test tube (chemistry) but that is not it. There were four "Scoutmaster" patches. The old green/silver Scoutmaster badge was one. If I remember corectly, I think that SA badge was the same as the SM but with a different color border; gold (SA) vs. silver (SM). Is this correct? Anyhow, if anyone can lead me to a on-line reference I'd be grateful.

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that...." How does one interpret the above? {That is a rhetorical question people.) Does it mean a few grand poobahs on the national council? The majority of members on the BSA? The BSA lawyer(s) position? Just like the difference between practicing Catholics and the "Church", there are differences. Now I'm sure the words "hypocrisy", "lies", etc. will be bandied about but in reality, the position of the BSA and all of its members don't march in lockstep.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Nice heartwarming story. Now for some levity. Why did Santa Claus go see his doctor the day before Christmas Eve? He wanted to make sure he had his "flue" shot. What did Santa say to the lumber jack? Only four more "chopping days" until Christmas! Santa scheduled a session with his psychiatrist. During the first session the psychiatrist asked him why he was there? Santa's response, "I no longer believe in me." Did anyone see the SNL "TV Funhouse" episode with the Santa Claus that did not want to deliver presents to the "blue" states. Regardless of ones politics, it was hilarious. Merry Christmas to all! (Especially to you Merlyn )

Own at least one shirt per position - i.e. show some commitment.

Mad Dog, you are such a tease!

Great story. On the flip side, I've always said the best publicity is garnered in this way. I've always though it would be a giant coup if the local Triangle Foundation made a large donation to one of the Scout Camps in their area.

This is an often repeated topic on this forum. I believe the card is an indication that the Scout has learned the rules (front) and agrees to abide by them (back). Nothing more, nothing less. I always ask to see their cards when they ask to use wood tools and if it is not signed by them on the back my answer is no. In the requirements book, it states that "The Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibility." Now, my interpretation is that as SM, I have the power to remove the Totin' Rights from a Scout but once the card is earned it is the Scouts and just like I have no right to destroy any other property of the Scout, I do not and should not tear or rip his Totin' Chip (or Firem'n Chit) cards. I have removed knives from Scouts too if safety of others were an issue.

It is very hard to be absolute in the real world. Merlyn, consider this - the Government is at fault for sponsoring BSA units so why not spend your efforts trying to "kill" the Government and not the BSA? In the "non-Jewish" organization I would have to weigh in on does the good out-weigh the bad. We are all non-perfect - something all Christians and certainly most atheists can agree on. Merlyn - I highly suggest you spend your efforts trying to CHANGE the BSA's policies and not try and outright kill them off. To comment on Mr. Fogg's article I would say that Obedient, like the word Discipline, gets a bad rap these days. In the context of the Scout Law, obedience teaches a Scout the importance that we live in a society that has rules. The rules of his family, school, and troop and the laws of his community and nation should be obeyed. The age old question of what to do with "unjust" rules or laws may come up. Scouting's answer is to obey these rules or laws and if you disagree with them to work within the system, so to speak, to get them changed. All encompassing codes have their flaws but overall that is not a bad value to teach boys in the 10 - 18 yr. old age group. The moral complexities of the real world are difficult enought for an adult to understand, much less a 12 year old kid. Just like teaching them to obey their parents is a good value to have at 12 but maybe by the time the Scout is 17, he will have the capacity to understand sometimes a parent can ask of him unethical things and his own judgement should come into play and blind following may not be such a good thing. As for reverent - I like the author's "awe" approach. Admit it, just like masturbation, we may not all admit it but we all have questioned the existence of God at some point in our lives. However, all I have to do is attend a non-denominational Chapel Service in the great outdoors on hear the wind in the trees, birds in the distance and the calming effect that it has on hundreds of assembled 10-17 year old boys (and a few excitable men and women) to be in awe of our world. For that I have much reverence! Now to say that truth, honesty and integrity are nowhere in the Socut Law is misleading. A Scout is trustworthy - he tells the Truth. He is honest and keeps his promises. People can count on him (he has integrity).(This message has been edited by acco40)

Okay, while I realize that I run the risk of being labeled as anal retentive... A Bear requirement (19. Shavings and Chips) is to earn the WHITTLING CHIP card. The actual card has WHITTLING CHIP on the top (older version is yellow, newer brown). The TOTIN' CHIP grants Scouts (Boy Scouts) the rights to carry and use wood tools. The FIREM'N CHIT grants Scouts (Boy Scouts) the rights to carry matches and build campfires. These three cards (along with the word Webelos) are amongst the most misspelled words in Scouting. It is not that hard to use the proper terms!

One thing to remember that many forget, strictly one should not wear the medal and the knot together. Most knots (Eagle, AOL, Training, etc.) represent the medal so that wearing both would be redundant. Now, I realize that one probably does not want to remove is red, white and blue square knot if he puts on the medal so many, like I instruct my sons, wear a medal directly over the knot. One of these days, I'm going to go to roundtable wearing the red, white and blue medals I won at the Cub Scout pinewood derby!!

Knots are sewn on so like a quality unit award, once it goes on it stays on (yes I remove the QU award after the 'term' expires.) I rarely wear my WB beads or service stars because it takes effort to put them on and I have to remove them when washing the shirt! However, I'll wear them to one or two COHs a year just to spark interest in the other adults to GET TRAINED! Most of the boys are clueless on what the knots, sashes, beads, etc. mean so it sure is not to impress them! As a UC wearing all of my "regalia" is a double edged sword. You want to convey that you have experience and knowledge but do not want to appear pompous or arrogant. What I get the most enjoyment out of wearing is my black boonie hat around the boys. It is our troop hat. Every time the troop goes to a new place for an outing I try and buy a souvenir pin to place on the hat. Right now it weights about an extra half-pound or so. It is a great recruiting tool for the boys. When I give a SM conference to Webelos, the Scout badge, or Tenderfoot rank, many will comment about what all the pins represent. It gives me a chance to point out all of the places we've been to over the years. They could care less about the knots and beads I'm wearing.(This message has been edited by acco40)

He's a well respected man about town doing the best things so conservatively. (Except when he goes clothes shopping!)

Camporees are not district events or council events. They are events put on by volunteers from units in a particular district or council. There is a difference. With the attitude that the "council" (or more properly district) puts on a camporee and units then have the simple choice of attending or not - no wonder the events seem lackluster! Similarly, troop outings are not just something the PLC or worse the adult leaders put on. They should be events that the boys thought about, passed along ideas to their PL, PLs brought it up the annual planning meeting(s), and then were implemented. I know that is ideally how it should work. I also know that it takes effort and many of the boys don't want to put forth the effort. That is where the Scouters great leadership training, mentoring, and other skills come (on don't) come into play.

One thing that I have mentioned before, and I admit it was to stir the pot and make people think, was that the BSA does not "rank" the eight methods of Scouting. One is not more important than another in the eyes of the BSA (i.e. Outdoors vs. the Uniform). When should take care not to let our individual biases take root.

NWScouter, I agree with your post. The uniform is of value to the extent that it encourages boys to grow as Scouts, leaders, and young men. However, one way to keep this value is to stop using the term "full uniform." There is a uniform, period. Well, actually there is two, a field unifomr and an activity uniform. A Scout is either wearing it or he is not. Same goes with Scouters. When we as Scouters make judgement calls on the methods of Scouting (we have taken a promise to deliver the Scouting program to our youth, not a part of it) by issuing such statements as "our troop doesn't require scout pants" or other such tripe we are not delivering the program as it was intended. Now, as SM, I know that a uniform is not required and I don't make it a requirement for BORs, SM conferences, COHs, etc. but I have the expectation that all Scouts will be in an appropriate uniform for all Scouting functions.

Personal taste dictates some. One can buy the Philmont Bull and wear it on ones red jacket and not have ever been to Philmont! Some are earned (i.e. Philmont Arrowhead Patch) and may not just be bought outright. Now, I must admit that I am not a into patch trading. If I have not experienced an "event" why would I want the patch that commemorates that event? Also, if you experience something as a youth, such as a Philmont Trek, and you would like to wear it on your Scouter shirt (as a temporary patch worn correctly) I say go for it! Now that Jamboree patch. I think there is a time limit for when to wear/not wear it. I'm sure someone will inform us on that one.

Keeps record of advancement for the boys or keeps records of advancement opportunities? For troops, definitely the advancement chair. For packs, my experience is that it is with the Den Leader. Remember for Cub Scouts at the Tiger/Wolf and Bear level parents can sign off. The committee person for advancement in a pack promotes advancement but does not keep records for every scout. A hint would be to look at the advancement record sheets that are turned into council - they need to be sign by the advancement chair in a troop but in a pack, the den leader and cub master. PACK ADVANCEMENT CHAIR DUTIES Have a working knowledge of the Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Scout advancement plans. Help plan and conduct induction and advancement recognition ceremonies. Arrange for Tiger Cub graduation ceremonies with the Cubmaster and Tiger Cub den leader. Train parents, guardians, and pack committee members in ways to stimulate Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Scout advancement. Arrange for Webelos graduation ceremonies with the Cubmaster, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster. Promote the use of Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Scout den advancement charts to record advancement in the den and as an incentive for advancement. Promote the use of den doodles as a stimulus for advancement. Collect den advancement reports at pack leaders' meetings for use when ordering badges and insignia from the local council service center. Promote Boys' Life magazine as an aid to advancement. Help build or obtain advancement equipment for use in making advancement ceremonies more effective. Promote the wearing and proper use of uniform and insignia. Nowhere does it mention that the Pack Advancement Chair keeps records for all of the Cub Scouts.(This message has been edited by acco40)

During my Woodbadge class we were doing something outside (forgot exactly what) and I was in my field uniform. I also had a bandanna which was wrapped around one of the belt loops on my shorts. The class was in the August time frame and the weather was extremely hot. I used the bandana to mop my brow and dry my hands after washing in the field. The purpose of wearing outide as opposed to in my pocket was so that it could air dry. Anyway, one day a member of the staff chastised me for having it stating that it was not part of a the uniform and to remove it. I promptly did and put it in my pocket. I thought it was a ridiculous request but why fight it and complied with his request. Don't make mountains out of mole hills when confronted with uniform issues.

Touche! Yes, our current ASPL kind of acts as our 'Sargeant at Arms' so to speak. It is just his personality. As for the SM conference, as the Scout in question if he feels he is living up to the SO and SL. His response may surprise you.

This debate reminds me of what I saw on the news last night about the Alabamian who is parading the ten commandments (stone statuary) around the south. This is the same monument that was banned by the "feds" from the Alabama state house. People sometimes forget what the actual debates are sometimes about - very few are "against" the Boys Scouts or the Ten Commandments but feel that the US government should not be in the "religious" business so to speak. And, the nana, nana, nana attitude some exibit is nauseating. Just another reflection of the civility decline in our society.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Eamonn, I agree but ask this of the Scouters you know - how many would be involved with the program if it was not for their sons?