acco40

What Gold Winger stated is correct. The Eagle accoutrements (patch, medal, pins, etc.) are controlled items so unless some underhanded shenanigans goes on, the advancement chair should not have an Eagle patch on hand to give out until the paperwork comes back to the Scoutmaster from the national council. Our district advancement chair, however, makes it a point to tell a Scout, if he has passed his EBOR, that if anyone asks, he may immediately tell everyone he is an Eagle Scout.

What sacrifices have I had to make for the "war on terror?" Let's see, no rationing, they still make autos (just not American made ), I don't have to worry about my sons being drafted, etc. I do have to put up with longer lines at the airport. Other than my conscious, not much direct effect on me. Now for my parents - both joined the Navy for WWII. Couldn't buy a car. Experienced rationing of food, gas and other items. My mother saw 45% of her graduating high school class (class of '43) enter the armed services (nearly 90% of the males). Father who was in the naval reserves was called up to go to Korea. They had to worry about their son's going to Vietnam (one turned 18 in '72, one in '74 so just missed that one), etc. What is the ratio of urban/rural for the US population right now? Look at who gets killed in Afganistan and Iraq? Yes, some wish to make a career out of the military and they can be from well to do or middle class families and have extensive education. But I believe that the vast majority of the enlisted service men and women join because it is a chance to get an education (GI bill), learn a skill or trade, grow up & mature and it pays. In today's economy, especially small town and rural - times are hard and the service presents opportunity.

Religious denominations that grow are those that have strict standards of belief. The denominations that allow for a broad set of beliefs tend to be relatively flat in growth or losing members. Shakers have a very strict set of standards (including celibacy) but for obvious reasons their numbers have dwindled to almost nothing. Then again, repeating the lyrics of one of my favorite muscians - If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. So, I don't know if membership would grow or decline if the DRP would drop. But from my persective, I'm not a professional Scouter, membership numbers are only a secondary concern to me. What would really change if we still expected the same actions out of our Scouts and Scouters - Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave and Clean - but did not mandate what beliefs they should have? Could an organization like that help boys with character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness? If so, should it open its doors a little wider for the youth and adults who want to achieve those goals?

Hops, you are mixing apples and oranges -defense spending, foriegn aid, disaster relief, etc. Defense spending (military to some is just Army) is the proper term. Foreign aid to many countries is many times cash that is then used to buy USA defense products. I work for a private company that earns most of their money in the defense business so yes, I'm biased. I do feel our armed forces should be used to defend our country and to fight and win our nations wars. What I don't feel our armed forces should be used for is disaster relief (sandbagging), as a police force (most are trained to shoot to kill not police) and a host of other "jobs" that our country asks them to do. Should we spend more or less on defense? Tough question. We do spend much less now, as was pointed out earlier, than we did in the past. For those who would like us to do less "warring" the quickest way to make that happen is to have compulsory military service or re-institute the draft. When the soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines are composed of Americans from all classes of our society I'm sure our policies would change.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I ask Tenderfoot "candidates" during their SM conference what their duty to God is. Nearly 100% respond by stating what the expectations are of their parents. I get responses like pray, go to church, etc. I never get responses like "be good", "be kind", "be respectful", etc. When I ask them why going to church is part of their duty to God I usually get blank stares. Same goes for duty to country. What is the duty to country for an 11 year old boy? Most are clueless, some state things like "don't litter" etc. I finally put the seed into their head that something as simple as don't break the law is part of their "duty to country." Now, if I don't believe in God or gods can I have a duty to God? Well, I can easily state that no I do not have a duty and therefore easily pass this requirement. I know that is semantics but ... (This message has been edited by acco40)

Please God, I pray to you to help alleviate some of the thick headed numbskulls that refuse to listen and actually help them to achieve the capability to read, digest information and make intelligent choices. Amen. It really is very simple. While arguing a court case, the BSA took the position that it was a private organization and thus able to set their own membership criteria. The courts upheld that position. The US legal system, as it stands now, does not allow discrimination on the basis of religion. The BSA has made the belief in the DRP a "joining requirement" so to speak. Therefore, government institutions like the US Army, Public School systems, Department of Education, etc. should not charter BSA units. When they do, some individuals, such as Meryln, challenge those institutions and the BSA. What in the above so hard to understand about the BSA position and the US legal system? It really doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with the above, it is fact. Now some take the "lump it or leave" approach (i.e. if you don't like it start your own club); others feel the BSA made a mistake and and try to change it from within (i.e. let's remove or alter the DRP). Both are options although I think only one shows scout spirit.

Skeptic, you can't be kinda gay or kinda atheist. You either are, or are not. No real gray area here. Au contraire. Most leading psychologists and psychiatrists believe that we are all on a continuum of sort wrt to sexuality. Nobody is 100% straight or 100% gay. I know most don't like to think of it in that way but who am I to argue with the experts. I know myself and even individuals such as Mother Theresa have struggled with their faith. The world is full of gray and for some, even grey. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Um, folks everybody lives in a flood plain. It is just characterized by higher or lower periods of flooding. In West Alton, the houses are on stilts and only the poor live there. It seems to flood almost annually. The folks are not stupid. Many high priced homes are right on the beaches in hurricane country. If the federal government didn't insure those houses, the rich would relocate. Adding levees doesn't do anything to prevent flooding. It "redistributes" the flooding and makes it worse somewhere else - i.e. by increasing flow rate. We've (mankind) have drained the marshes/wetlands and put up dikes and levees and then cry foul when mother nature causes floods. Duh! Now, can I mention global warming?

Okay, let's say I'm Mr. Athiest. Me and the little women raise up a few kids. One day, my oldest asks - "Dad, why does the president always end his public speeches with God bless America?" Well, son, I answer, he believes in God and he is expressing his belief something that most Americans, including your mother and I believe in. The next day, "Dad, why does the Pledge of Allegiance have the phrase "under God?" I tell him about the original PoA and that the phrase was added during the red scare/McCarthyism of the 50s. The next day he asks why politicians of all stripes that he has witnessed are sworn in on a Bible and state "So help me God." The same for court room witnesses. Tradition, I tell him. The next day, "Dad, why does it say In God We Trust on all of my coins?" Go, ask your mother I say. This Q&A goes on again and again. Is this freedom from religion?

Cool it guys. When my oldest joined Cub Socuts as a second grader, he, like most children his age, didn't really question his religious upbringing. My wife, a Catholic, had him take the requisite Catholic religious education. As a non-Catholic, maybe I wasn't as supportive as my wife but I felt it was a good idea to be educated in religion to some extent. We don't make secular education a child's choice now do we? All was well and good and he earned his Light of Christ as a Cub Scout. Then tragedy struck. His religious education teacher, a volunteer parent just like most Scout leaders, died of a ruptured aorta. She was only in her mid 30's. Well my son was understandably confused, angry and the other typical signs of grief. How could a loving God strike down his religious education teacher who was a mother of five including a boy in his class? Enough with this Jesus loves me, if I'm good I'll be rewarded crap he thought (I'm paraphrasing the thinking of an immature 9 year old boy.). He refused to go to church for a few weeks. My wife didn't understand, I did. Don't push him was my advice. Should I have yanked him out of Scouting? What, pray tell would that have accomplished? Was he living a lie? Hypocritical? Come on people, practice some of that Christian "turn the other cheek" mentality. So, yes one may be an athiest in Scouts. Heck, for the Scouts, who the heck knows what they are! How many adults have the same beliefs now that they did in their teens, 20s or even 30s? I don't.

Not sure where to place this but I thought some (especially Eamonn) may enjoy it. A message from Her Majesty, the Queen. To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II: In light of your failure in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas , which she does not fancy). Your new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: (You should look up revocation in the Oxford English Dictionary.) 1. Then look up aluminium, and check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. 2. The letter U will be reinstated in words such as colour, favour, labour and neighbour. Likewise, you will learn to spell doughnut without skipping half the letters, and the suffix -ize will be replaced by the suffix -ise. Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (Look up vocabulary). 3. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as like and you know is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as US English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter u and the elimination of -ize. 4. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday. 5. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that youre not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you cant sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then youre not ready to shoot grouse. 6. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public. 7. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour. 8. The Former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it. 9. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar. 10. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting Nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnats Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion. 11. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Gywneth Paltrow attempt English dialogue in Shakespeare in Love was an experience akin to having ones ears removed with a cheese grater. 12. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football: you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full Kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies). Dont try Rugby - the South Africans and Kiwis will thrash you, like they regularly thrash us. 13. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries. 14. You must tell us who killed JFK. Its been driving us mad. 15. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majestys Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776). 16. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 pm with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Some see allowing females to be a Scoutmaster as a value change; others understandably do not. Same with the DRP. If the BSA removed the DRP as a membership criteria, I don't see that as a lowering of values - just a change. Would it greatly alter the way unit's operate? I'm sure some would say yes, others no. For myself, I'm not demanding anything. But I wouldn't say the BSA would be lowering it's values if it allowed gays, girls or the removal of the DRP. I look at it this way, if an agnostic, gay, 11 year old boy wanted to join the BSA I think it would benefit the boy. Now, I would not want this Scout "preaching" to the other Scouts, just like I don't want a Catholic Scout "preaching" to the other Scouts but as long as we all agree to live by the Scout Oath and Law I think that would be great. Now I know some see an impossibility in living by the Scout Oath and Law if one is gay or an atheist but I do not. If Quakers can do their duty to country, and atheist can do their duty to God.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The BSA grants the right to the Morman (LDS) church to modify the Scouting program to meet the needs of the their church. I'm not aware that they do this for any other organization. All organizations have the right to be more selective in their membership requirements (i.e a Troop chartered by the Knights of Columbus may require all youth in their troop to be members of the Catholic Church for example). Scouting is the male youth organization of the Church. No other organization has this to my knowledge. Ask the boys in an LDS troop how their patrol leader is selected. Ask youth members if they can switch troops/units. Ask what their age requirements are. Now, I think it is great what the LDS Church has done for Scouting and for their youth. I have no qualms with the "rights" that the BSA has granted the Mormons. But the BSA program within the LDS church is different in some respects.

I've got a lot of Ohio humor that I can share with you. Living in Michigan, provides me with much fodder.

Lutherans not having something tacked on to the door? Lutherans always have something good inside - coffee!

While I like your idea for trying to move the committee meeting I don't like, nor do we have, standing times for BORs. They are all Scout initiated and then the Advancement Chair sets them up.

I tend to agree with FScouter. However, for the vast majority of my Tenderfoot and for nearly all of the Scout badge Scoutmaster reviews I give the Scout does not know the meaning of a few words in the Law. The ones they have the most difficulty with are thrifty and reverent. They just plane don't know what they mean. I try to explain each one to them. I state that the root word for reverent is "revere." That the BSA asks them to revere something/someone and that the word is similar to worship (that they understand). The first response by many is "but my parents don't go to church" - so I reply to them that as a Scoutmaster, my expectations are that they follow their parents desires wrt to religion. I don't ask what those desires may be. For the older Scouts, some tend to do natural teenage things like explore religious teachings that are different than what they were brought up with. For that aspect, I don't judge the wisdom of that choice but do discuss with the Scout how he may show reverence. Now, I tend to believe one may be "moral & ethical" and still not believe in in a higher power. I'm aware not all agree. So, I look more at actions of the Scout and less on beliefs. I had one Scout, a very good Scout in my view, tell me that he didn't believe in God. I didn't make a big deal out of it, I think he was just following in his parents footsteps but was a very ehtical, moral, generous, kind, ... person just like his parents. Was he reverent? Well, he revered many of his teachers, music and other things.

equinenecrophiliacs - please elaborate. Horse's patoots that complain alot?

Yes the BSA is a private organization and one in which I am a member. That gives them the right to set their own membership rules. Bobwhite - were you insulted when the BSA change the minimum age requirement to join? Where you insulted when they allowed females to become Cubmasters, Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters? Do you find any change (i.e. going away from traditional) insulting? I see possible good and bad ramifications if the BSA did away with the DRP. However, I don't find debate of that issue insulting.

In our unit, our committee meeting meets the same time and place (same building, different room) as the troop meeting. As Scoutmaster, I don't like it and have made my desires known to the CC and advancement chair. They cite the same argument - if their kids didn't have to be there, they in all probability would not be there. Yes, I do think it reflects negatively to their commitment to the program. I don't like to beat a dead horse so I usually only bring up my desires on this topic about once a year.

I don't interpret you may use one week the same as you may not use more than one week. Bottom line is it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks other than the MBC.

Weren't Den Leaders, at one time, formal members of the Pack Committee at one time?

I agree, it's not rocket science but I disagree with your conclusion. At summer camp - a scouting activity - we camp in tents that we pitch. Current requirement: 9. Show experience in camping by doing the following: a) Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent. The old requirement read like this: 9. Show experience in camping by doing the following: a) Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). Therefore, I think the intent of the phrase "may use a week of long-term camp" was so that the Scout could sleep in a platform tent or cabin and still use it. I don't feel the current requirement is trying to exclude more than one week of long term camp if the scout pitches his own tent.

If "official" has replaced "field" in the uniform parlance what pray tell is the activity uniform now? I know what constitutes an activity uniform (please no posts on that subject) but since it is not "official" - that moniker taken - what is it? The "other white meat" unofficial accetable uniform?

Another "legend" - A Scout can't sleep in his tent by himself. Question - what is this merit badge scenario some have referenced in this thread? I admit I skimmed some posts quickly. Bob White - I tend to agree with you but consider this. During a Scout activity there are some things I do because it is in the G2SS and I wish to comply to be "legal." As a Scoutmaster who mentors and approves (serves as a gatekeeper along with the Committee Chair) the initial ELSP write-up, I sometimes will advise the Scout to follow some G2SS guidelines because I think they are good guidelines to follow - scout activity or not. Not all mind you, but some. So I'll advise the scout to follow them. Sometimes I'll wear my troop t-shirt when working on a Scotu's Eagle Project. I know I don't need to but it's sort of like wearing your team's softball jersey to a bar after the game (for a few root beers). It shows a sense of comraderie. Samething for can drives, etc. when raising money for Eagle Projects, units or patrols.