acco40

Well, first of all, the WB ceremony was held immediately after the troop meeting and all of the Scouts stayed on to witness it. That either disproves your theory that they could care less or possibly it was because my wife had cake an punch available afterwards. I think you give the Scouts too little credit.

IOLS should have participants "doing" not "observing." Kudu - I've had Scouts who were masters of a certain skill. However, they couldn't teach a lick. They would make lousy patrol leaders. The purpose of a Patrol is to go out on patrol. In other words, Wood Badge took the patrolling out of the Patrol Method. Then why did I go on a patrol hike, pick out our campsite and camp for two days with my patrol during Wood Badge?

HICO_Eagle, I'm really frustrated with this either / or mantra on Leadership / Scoutskills that Kudu preaches. Let's look at the education we give our professionals that work with Cub Scout and Boy Scout age boys. They get a mixture of "Scoutcraft" courses - mathematics, English, history, science, etc. and also a lot of "Leadership" courese - child development, child psychology, learning behaviors, etc. Is one better than the other? No. Again, get trained in both but if you only take one, take the courese that best addresses your biggest deficiency.

Umm, yes there are. The Scout must be at least 11 years old or completed the 5th grade or earned AOL and is at least 10 years old. Also, they have to be younger than 18.

Beavah - you state that we are a civilian organization and thus a comparison to the military/services is inappropriate. Well, I agree to a degree. We are a civilian organization but we are a uniformed civilian organization. A comparison might be the Catholic Church. Lay individuals, archbishops, diocesan bishops, Cardinals, Pope, decons, lay, etc. all have "uniforms" that they wear when doing "church stuff" so to speak. Are they egotists to wear their appropriate "uniform?" Does wearing "funny hats" make them more effective in their roles? In a way, it does.

Congratulations on acquiring 14 knots in only 10 years. That's hard to do, eh? And still harder to do well. That's the best example of damning with faint praise as I've ever seen! Beavah, just like the Eagle Rank, one does not "acquire" knots but one does earn them. And exactly how many ECOHs have you attended that you stated to the guest of honor that not only did you "acquire" the rank, you did it well? The vast majority of "knots" are earned training, tenure, service and leadership. By earning these awards, it shows dedication and commitment to the program and yes, possibly an interest in earning awards. Why, given no other information, assume that a Scouter has earned these for self gratification? Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Yes, the program emphasis is on the youth. And I've had numerous experiences that at the Boy Scout level especially, Scouts have a little more respect of Scouters that have been in the program for a few years, took the opportunity to get trained, show pride in the uniform and are more than just a mom or dad who bought a shirt. At this age, Scouts make great hypocrisy meters. I had my Wood Badge ceremony at one of our troop meetings as opposed to the customary roundtable venue that most have. Why? Because I could care less what the other adults felt but it showed the boys that I cared about the program and went to training and that their Scoutmaster could act just as crazy and sophomoric (singing the critter song, engaging in ceremonial accoutrements, etc.) as they do. I did not expect any less of myself than what I expected of them - get trained, take the program seriously, have fun doing it and show pride in your accomplishmets. Our job is to be role models after all, isn't it? Can adults go overboard with this stuff? Sure they can and many do. But, let's don't make rash generalizations about those that do wear appropriate insignia.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I think we are wasting some time here. 1) Natural - the FDA can't define this term so why should we attempt to? Does homosexuality occur in nature? Yes, in humans, mamals and even some creatures are hermaphrodites! Celibacy in not natural in humans, yet some religions hold that up on a pedestal! 2) Is homosexuality a sin/immoral/wrong etc.? No more, no less than working on the Sabbath, eating pork, not covering ones head, etc. It's all in the eye of the beholder. 3) Should sex be only for procreation? Even Catholocism has dropped that belief. The real question is; Should an organization, such as the BSA restrict adult leadership in such a way as to limit avowed homosexuals? If so, why? If not, why? Arguments such as a simple "it's wrong" are lame in my book.

We ran into issues that our council, state parks, county parks, and many other areas do not let minors (i.e. Scouts) make reservations. So I paired the responsible Scout to our committee "outings" person. One barrier to break - in advance to a 13 year old is the day before. In advance wrt annual planning can be 9 months or more. Once the the annual plan came to fruition - put names down on paper (Scout/Adult) and tracked it at PLC meetings.(This message has been edited by acco40)

These is a reason why they call it annual planning. I had a radical suggestion because while we rarely ran into reservation issues - numbers (how many are going) was always a last minute thing. My solution, which went over like a lead balloon, was to charge each Scout a $250 (est.) fee each year and then make all outings "free." Some many of the reservations were not "head count based" it was difficult to set a cost per scout because the numbers were unknown.

The context of what I posted was from the eyes of prospective parents and Scouts shopping for troop. So, it only listed things that could be perceived by an "outsider" during a troop meeting or outing visit.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I was never a Boy Scout. If it were not for Scouting, I would not have had the opportunity to get to know the boys, including two of my own sons, as well as I have had. For that, I am eternally grateful. For my sons, seeing/hearing their father scream like a girl right after just miss stepping on a rattle snake (the snake saw me first and gave me a warning) in the New Mexico back country was a treat. So was shooting your boxers, a convenient target, at 100 ft with a black powder rifle and bringing them home to mom. Finally, attending a bonfire, in the snow, on the beach, in a foreign country (no fireworks fo course) was memorable too.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Nice. A well written, complementary article about the BSA.

So, does booing a speaker at an event such as this, President of the United States or not demonstrate - Trustworthy? Loyal? Helpful? Courteous? Kind? Obedient? Cheerful? Thrifty? Brave? Clean? Reverent? Duty to Country? Helping other people at all times? Yes, sad and for those outside of the Scouting movement who would witness such a thing I could see how this would help recruit them as much as a pedofile priest would help folks convert to Catholicism.

are you the police? no mam, we are musicians. You contemptible pig! I remained celibate for you. I stood at the back of a cathedral, waiting, in celibacy, for you, with three hundred friends and relatives in attendance. My uncle hired the best Romanian caterers in the state. To obtain the seven limousines for the wedding party, my father used up his last favor with Mad Pete Trullo. So for me, for my mother, my grandmother, my father, my uncle, and for the common good, I must now kill you, and your brother. I ran outta gas! I had a flat tire! I didn't have enough money for cab fare! My tux didn't come back from the cleaners! An old friend came in from outta town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts!! It wasn't my fault I swear to God!!! We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline. Use of unnecessary violence in apprehension of the Blues Brothers... has been approved. Jake: What is this? Elwood: What? Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? [Jake tries to use the car's lighter, but it does not work; he throws it out the window] Jake: The Caddy, where's the Caddy? Elwood The what? Jake: The Cadillac we used to have! The Bluesmobile! Elwood I traded it. Jake: You traded the Bluesmobile for this?! Elwood: No ... for a microphone. Jake: A microphone? [pause] Okay, I can see that. But what the hell is this? Elwood: This was a bargain. I picked it up at the Mount Prospect City police auction last spring. It's an old Mount Prospect police car. They were practically giving them away. Jake: Well thank you, pal. The day I get out of prison, my own brother comes to pick me up in a police car.

One sign of a "not so good" troop is that they work on merit badges. The following, or something very similar (which I've plagerized) was posted here before (Bob White?) which I find very informative. Maybe I should add that they don't constantly "wish" for thing like they were before? Some Common Traits of Successful Troops 1. Currently trained adults. 2. Leaders wear correct uniform. 3. Scoutmaster concentrates on training Junior Leaders, and knowing the needs and characteristics of each scout. 4. They use the Patrol Method for everything. 5. They follow the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook. 6. The committee supports the decision of the scouts, they dont make decisions for them. 7. They have at least two Assistant Scoutmasters. 8. They recognize scouts three times for each advancement. 9. They DONT use troop meetings as merit badge classes. 10. They plan everything in advance and put it in writing. 11. The only rules they have are that scouts and leaders follow the Scout Oath and Law. 12. They get outdoors once a month (even if just for a day event) 13. Troop meetings are filled with hands on activities 14. New scouts make First Class, First Year. 15. They keep in contact with Webelos Dens year round. 16. They select leaders they dont recruit them. 17. They participate in District and Council events. 18. They attend Roundtable. 19. Adults smile and play nice together. (If you are not enjoying yourself then neither are the scouts.)

This is absurd. A troop needs an SPL. A troop also needs to be sure that an SPL is aware of his duties. They are not 'defacto' patrol leaders for the troop. Think of any committee. Who creates the agenda? Who chairs the meeting? Who should be the main interface with the Scoutmaster? Who should appoint the Troop Scribe, Bugler, Librarian, Historian, etc.? Having everything run by committee is a recipe for disaster. Who meets with a camp inspector during check-in or check-out? Who represents the youth at a troop committee meeting? Who chairs the annual planning meeting? Just because a troop does not know the proper responsibilities of an SPL does not mean they don't need one. What an SPL should not do is overshadow a PL. I always had the SPL eat with the adults, not with the patrols because he would appear to be the leader. Now, this other nonsense of "fake leadership" - one may have great leadership skills and average Scoutcraft skill. I have had Scouts who were great at a specific Scout skill but had no interest nor desire to teach that skill. Don't blame bonehead moves by the adults (no outings unless you elect an SPL) with the proper way the program should be run.

Sometimes a misbehaving Scout is an asset to help the other Scouts deal with "real world" actions. The "test" and it is a fine line, is at what level does the offending Scout so monopolize the troops resources - Scouters time, Scouts patience, etc. so that the benefit of the program to that Scout is minimal considering the detriment his behavior is on the remainder of the unit. Therefore, it is impossible to state a certain action is a litmus test for removal. Just my two cents.

At 5'7" myself, I'm glad I'm not the only short Scouter around.

The security "issue" with having the POTUS attend Jambo is not with the President but with the Scouts. The security issue is that it will add about 4 hours for the Scouts to attend. I'm sure that isn't why President Obama will not attend and I won't venture to guess why. But, I think it is presumptuous of Scouters to believe that he "should" or "must" attend. I'm sure if he did attend he'd get just as much negative publicity about attending just for a photo op, etc. As a black friend once told me - so, you're asking why a black family wouldn't a little leery of a perceived "white" organization that wears a uniform, goes out into the country side, lights fires at night, claims to have (Christian to some) religious views, etc.? Have we not seen this before.

Scouter complaints that I've heard time and time again - I do this for free and yet this guy gets paid and does a poor job at best! His concern is not the unit but "numbers." Professional complaints that I've heard time and time again - Those incompetent Scouters, if they ran the program the way it is laid out, we would have no problem getting boys to sign up! You wouldn't believe the horror stories that come to my office about Scouters. Reality - they are both correct. The professionals and the volunteers have two different tasks. Scouting is a business. If not, we would have gays and atheists!

Maybe he was just reading the tea leaves before going off to party. Or, possibly just in a hurry to feed his elephant. :0

I'm 90% in shrotridge's corner on this one. What I may suggest is to wait for your son to bring up the issue with you and openly talk about responsibility - your son, SM, Webmaster, etc. mostly from a "asking questions" point of you. Then possibly suggest to your son that he talk to his Scoutmaster but under no circumstances would I have you talk to the SM yourself. I don't see how that would help anything.

Red Flags He wasn't my first choice The SPL candidates who run for election are approved by the Scoutmaster but the Scoutmaster's choice? I . . . had to call him out twice for shirking his duties. The Scoutmaster should not be calling any scout "out" but guiding behind the scenes. A few times during the week he was rude to one of our adults (his mother) and an ASM reprimanded him for his tone. What was his mother's response? I lived with my SPL for few years and was he always respectful of me? No, he was a teenager. However, my expectations were different at a Scouting event. Scouts see their parents as parents, not Scouters and, not trying to make excuses for the kid, but habits at home don't somehow disappear at a Scouting event. he threatened two other adults with physical violence. It's is one thing to verbally threaten physical violence and another to physically threaten physical violence in my estimation. For example, saying I'm going to kill you to someone vs. pointing a loaded hand gun at someone are too very different things so I'm going to bite my tongue on this one. the ASPL doesn't want the job either Does the current SPL want the position or feel Shanghaiinged? As a SM, you should not have approved of an ASPL that does not want or is not willing to become an SPL. It's easy to say remove him but what does that lead to? Does any Scout want the job? I'd consider the end result first, the boys elected him.

Abel - since your statement was right after mine, not sure if you caught my "drift" or not. I agree with you. But there are age limits as you implied. Any Boy Scout may earn any merit badge at any time. " - Boy Scouts impose age limits and that is what I stated in my post.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Just a reminder to what the swimming MB requirements are: it's not just about how far you can swim, but how well and how far. swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: . . . Swim continuously for 150 yards using the following strokes in good form and in a strong manner . . . So technically, the "minimum" requirements are fairly tough. That said, if the MBC says they passed - they passed. My son took that MB class, not at summer camp mind you, and while completing the distance, was not in the best "strong manner" but the counselor, a seasoned adult, told me he checked off the requirement but advised that he keep practicing. He did and now I think he is part fish.