acco40

I think it stinks. Why would the government get involved in this kind of legislation for a private organization? If the BSA can't stand on its own merits, maybe they should change. What about the Sons of the Confederacy? Daughters of the Revolution? Descendants of the Mayflower? What is a patriotic organization? This type of legislation is rife with problems.

What to do? Get trained and learn to keep your hand down when asked to volunteer unless you know what you aregettng into!

First of all, for a few years I did not have an assistant den leader so I had to have at least one parent stay (a husband and wife do not make two-deep leadership). Second, it was most disruptive when parents stayed, did not get involved and essentially socialized at the meeting with each other. My ground rules were that parents were more than welcome to stay but would be "on staff" if they stayed. If they did not wish to be "on staff" they were free to leave. On the behavior side, some children behave much better when a parent are present, some much worse. I had one kid who I really like and his dad would attend the meetings and essentially play games on his cell phone the whole meeting. One meeting we were building tool boxes. I had precut all the lumber and drilled nail guide holes in all the pieces. We had about six hammers for eight boys (Bear den, i.e. third graders). Most of the boys had one on one adult supervision and the one boy asked for my assistance while I was helping another boy. I politely asked him to ask his father and the boy just laughed! Of course he was totally correct in expecting absolutely no help from dad. Sad but true.

Another short and sweet explanation is that if I told you I'd have to kill you! (This message has been edited by acco40)

Fscouter, it is not redundant. There are no hard age requirements for Cub Scouts that I am aware of. Although I admit I'm no longer directly involved in the Cub program. From my memory, the Cub Scout program is age based and grade based. A five year old may earn the Arrow of Light if he has completed the fourth grade. And Bob White, I would not say that the national council has reminded anyone of anything, I'd say that they changed the joining requirements for the Boy Scouts. I'm confused that you state that a Webelos Scout needs to be ten years old to earn his AOL.

"let the boys train the boys" - is a hot button topic SM Ron. I can see reasons for it and against it. The primary role of the SM is to train the youth leaders and many feel this is a task that should not be delegated. Others feel that the best way to learn a skill is to teach it. I feel there is a little truth to each. My son has been asked to help staff the new NYLT course this summer. I've would love to see him do that for my own selfish reasons. I'd like to see him grow in leadership capability and would like to see the differences in the course.

Almost correct BW. I think the at least 11 and complete the fifth grade is not quite right. I think it is at least 11 OR complete the fifth grade if the youth has not earned AOL. OLD Requirement: Earn AOL OR be at least 11 (and under 18) OR complete the first grade. New Requirement: (Earn AOL) OR (be at least 11) OR (complete the fifth grade) AND (be at least 10 years of age). I'll soon find out because an 11 year old fifth grader who was never a Cub Scout (and thus has not earned the AOL) want to join our troop.

I'm still confused. If a Scout is eligible to be voted on by his peers for membership (actually voted on to become a candidate for membership) then the Scout has obtained 1st Class and has met the minimum number of nights of camping in the past two years. Therefore, he HAS gone on outings. To obtain 1st Class he HAS shown Scout spirit. So I ask, under what circumstances should a SM remove him from the ballot?

Ed, your school district sounds like it instituted a nice "free labor" program rather than a community service program. I like that idea. I'm going to offer the Scouts in our troop the opportunity to sweep out the Scoutmaster's garage, cut his grass, bag his leaves, etc. Thanks for the great idea!1

Agreed and the only way that judgement call (did the Scout come to see the value of service?) can be made is to talk to the Scout. Now, if I could only effectively communicate that to the parents!

OGE, I may have what Ed has in mind or I may be way off base but - I think what he is saying is that when community service is made mandatory - it is no longer service. That is a fine line I know. Some religious programs dictate a certain amount of time spent on community service, so does Scouts for rank advancement, so do some schools etc. To stir the pot, I'll make a religious comparison. I'm more of in the camp of a "loving God" who wishes that we (humans) do "nice things" like community service because we see it as actions that contribute to the betterment of society. Others may take the view of a "vengeful" God and they perform community service so they don't have to worry about spending an eternity roasting over hot coals in the afterlife. Judges sentence criminals to community service - yikes! That makes people associate service with punishment. Now does it matter why someone performs community service or does just matter that they do? I'm in the camp that believes it does matter why they do it.

Now I'm confused. How can one be voted on by his troop if he has not attended any campouts? There is a minimum number of camping nights required including long term camping. Now my engineering side is going to come through. What in the heck do posters mean by the "best" Scout? What criteria should Scoutmasters use? One puts the Scoutmasters in a very awkward position if a Scout has met the camping and rank requirements and the Scoutmaster does not allow the Scout to become an arrowmen. The SM has already inidcated that the Scout lives by the Oath and Law (he has his rank!). Under what circumstances would the SM not allow the boy to be elected? Also, IMO, it is better to elect a Scout who may not really benefit from the OA experience than to not allow a Scout that experience who may have benefitted greatly. Err on the side of letting a boy get elected is my thoughts.

First, our troop offers multiple opportunities for advancement. We have a couple of boys in our troop who never seem to participate in patrol or troop service activities. However, their parents continuously complain that I don't count the "service" their son performs. Forget the fact that I have not been told of the service by the Scout, I have no dates, no verification, etc. The parents harumph that I should just mark it down because a Scout is trustworthy and I should trust their Scout. I don't have a problem with counting service performed outside of a troop or patrol setting but I would like to be informed of the service by the Scout in question (not his parents), have accurate dates, times, etc. On the Eagle service project, one requirement is that the work/leadership performed should be indicative of the Scout's best effort. In a similar vein, I like to see some effort put forth by the Scout with his service hours for Star and Life.

SHould it count? No, not if the Scoutmaster did not approve it. Should the Scoutmaster have approved of the service? That is entirely differennt question. I don't count time serving as den chief as service. That is part of the responsibility. His work as Troop Scribe and JLT are duitesand training, not service. What the Scoutmaster would love to see is for the young man to approach him and ask what service does the troop have on tap in the immediate future and if none exist, ask to work with his patrol to come up with a service project that they can accomplish. Scoutmasters generally do not like to be approached after the fact about work done at school, church, etc. and asked "Does it count?"

Thanks to all for your opinions {although eagleSM, I'm not sure all opinions were humble }. I talked with my district advancement chair to get his opinion too. He stated to me that he would not count as service hours activities that are normally expected of a Scout as part of his school, religious or community activities. I specifically asked about work performed during an Order of the Arrow Ordeal weekend, serving as an usher at church, serving as an altar boy at church, and performing service as part of a confirmation requirement. He stated that while the Scoutmaster has the authority to accept or not accept these tasks, he would not count these items. His reasoning is that for the OA Ordeal, that was an expected part of the Ordeal experience. Serving as an usher or altar server is an expected part of religious activities. He also stated that service that is counted for something else (i.e. confirmation) should not be counted as service for the BSA. His words, "No double dipping." However, the most important thing that he stressed is that whatever criteria a Scoutmaster uses, he should be consistent. Now, for myself, I've asked, not required mind you, Scouts to inform me of service work they plan on doing before they commence. That way, I can talk with the boys about it and see how they view it. I've decided to have no blanket rule about "double dipping" but I will have this caveat. If the Scout performs service only because he "had to" for some other requirement, I don't believe I'll count it for Scouts either. If the Scout did it for the purpose of helping others and because of other reasons (confirmation project, Scout requirements, etc.) I'll count it. To determine the intent, I'll need to get with the Scout to discuss the service. I'll need to make a judgement call about what the Scout got out of the experience. If it was just a "ticket punch" effort, he may be out of luck. Thanks again for all of your input. Yes it is nice that the BSA gives us some leeway or subjectivity on these issues, but it does put us on the hot seat once in a while.

OGE & BW, I'm not trying to give you a hard time but the response of "its my understanding that the reason the OA limits adults members is because its supposed to be a youth organization with adults only in supporting roles so it limits adults to assure its run by the youth." is true for all of Boy Scouts - not just the OA. Now I understand that for the adults, the real acceptance issue is for what they can provide to the Order, not what they have done. I think it is a good education for many adults to see what the boys can do (the slight age skew of about 12 - 21 helps). I don't want to get into the diluted/not diluted issue but I must admit that I am very disappointed at the number of Scouts who do not attend OA meetings/functions.

Something to ponder regardless of where on the fence you sit on this issue - How come the election process for adults (limited number, not just qualifications) is different for than what it is for the youth (meet qualifications, unlimited number)? One thing that I stress with the troop before our OA election each year is that the OA is primarily a service organization, not an honor society. I know that that belief is not held by all but a Scout should strive for membership so that he may provide service, not for recognition.

Why give awards to volunteers who are silly? Oh, you mean silly awards for volunteers! How about gluing a dime onto a safety pin to produce a neat award for a volunteer (drum roll please) a priceless dime and pin {diamond pin }. I've seen references to these types of awards in Cub Scout literature more often than Boy Scout literature.

When I was a Bear den leader, we had some boys join up for the first time. One earned his Bobcat around NOvember of the third grade. He was about my size! Now 12, he towers over me. My older son was turned over. I know suggest den leaders stand on their heads, have the Scout walk up to them and then the den leader can pin the badge on the Scout upside down until a good deed is done!

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati (When all else fails, play dead.) I one espouses to know Latin, spelling should count? Now, getting past "traditional values" Latin, I bring you: Veni, Vidi, Vicki. (I came, I saw, and I'm like, "Whatever".) Veni, Vidi, Velcro. (I came, I saw, I stuck around.) (This message has been edited by acco40)

Singing is like community service, some see it as a blessing, others a punishment. On our outings, my kids roll their eyes when Dad the SM starts singing. I've got so many tunes in my head that I can find appropriate lyrics for almost any occasion. Others find singing as a punishment. My condolences. I totally understand that while I may like singing, others do not and forcing anyone to do anything they wish not to is not only hazing but cruel. Community service has the same connotations. Some Scouts and Scouters see it as a ticket that needs to be punched to get their goal (rank advancement, etc.) Judge "sentence" individuals to so many hours of community service. Others, like myself, find "cheerful service even in the midst of irksome tasks" a rewarding experience, especially when doing it as a group (patrol, troop, etc.). C'est la vie.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I'm a believer in following the patrol method. We use NSP, regular (and will shortly - Venture) patrols. For various reasons, patrol sizes do get out of whack but I've been on outings where two members of a patrol participate and function very well as a patrol. Some background about our troop, the NSP patrols will soon have a year under their belt. Our current situation is 5 in regular patrol 1, 6 in regular patrol 2 (one has sparse attendance and two from this patrol are currently acting as SPL and ASPL so they are NOT a member of reg. patrol 2 now which had 8 members), 5 in NSP patrol 1 (soon to be six with a new recruit), 9 in NSP patrol 2 (with one with sparse attendance). My question, I plan on allowing the former NSP Scouts to either "advance" together and stay together as patrol or to integrate into existing patrols as they would like. In other words, I'd keep the patrol but if an individual Scout or two would like to join another existing regular patrol (and they would have him) that would be fine (pick your own peer goup I say). I would like all patrols to have more than 5 members because many times the SPL chooses an ASPL from his (former) patrol. That would bring a patrol of 5 down to three. It could function but ... Comments?

I agree with BW. The optimum time to cross over is Feb (best) - Mar (latest). My question - aside from a few Boys Scouts and a SM, who would attend a bridging/crossover ceremony that wouldn't attend a B&G? It seems like the same crowd to me. Combining the events should not double the attendance. What am I missing?

Ed, for a good understanding of the OA Ordeal, go through or witness again, a Brotherhood ceremony. Hazing is a tough nut for some. When personal gear is left out after repeated requests to stow it (by the PL, SPL, ASPL, SAs, SM, etc.) I (the SM) have a "habit" of collecting the mug, plate, fork, or other offending item and "storing" it in a safe place. The Scout and sometimes the Scouter, would then ask where the item may be. Is that hazing? To some, I'm sure it is. Most Scouts respond well to encouragement. Some need a touch of the stick and not just carrot. A good test that may help one decide if an action is hazing or not is to ask yourself if you would subject an adult to the same action? If not, it probably borderlines on hazing.

Rooster, please try and think for once. When I stated that sin is in the eye of the beholder, I was not trying to make a case for what is "right and wrong" but that not everyone (I'm speaking of humans now, not deities), agrees exactly what is sinful. Neither a borrower, nor a lender be; for loan oft loses both itself and friend, and borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry. That comes straight form the bible {or is it Shakespeare? }. Many believers of Islam believe that it is immoral (i.e. sinful) to borrow money or pay for money - better known as interest. However, I'm paying for the National Jamboree on the installment plan and nobody is making noise about it. Should the BSA bar anyone who takes out a home mortgage because those individuals are not morally straight? You may find that a ludicrous opinion; just as I find the same decision about the BSA stance on homosexuality. See we have a difference of opinion on what may be sinful - i.e. sin IS in the eye of the beholder. The $64 question is what should the BSA do? Poll the memebers? I hope not. Poll the COs? I hope not too. Try and make informed decisions, all the while listening to their members and the public at large? God, I hope so. The BSA should not hide behind such pablum as "traditional values." Heck, one of the methods of Scouting used to be adult male association. Now it is just adult association. Yes, Virginia, the BSA can change.