CA_Scouter

Thank goodness its only an hour a week! :-) The handle is familiar... glad to see you back!

In my family, we have a saying... if you say something bad about someone, you should say two nice things also. So let's hear it jkhny! < crickets chirping > My opinion is that BSA does a lot more things right than they do wrong. So did the White Star Line.

I have a potential new scout coming to our meeting tonight, who has Down syndrome. I admit to being fully ignorant of the condition, other than what I've managed to Google on... I, of course, will make every attempt to simply blend him into the troop, but if there are any of you with advice or words of wisdom, it would be much appreciated. The father has told me the boy is active and motivated in Scouts, and that he, himself is a very active participating parent. Thanks all.

Mr. LeRoy, My apologies for the offense, I simply meant to challenge you in a similar manner that you challenged the rest of us, albeit in a light-hearted manner, sorry if didn't come across that way. No need for the flame... I guess I'm not understanding why a person with your track record of dislike of the BSA feels it necessary to create an original post in the first place. I may not agree with you in most areas ( notice I didn't say 'all'), so I see your point about replying to subjects that concern government facilities usage and such, in your attempts to correct misconceptions or to quote legal decisions. Why would you create such a post with subject matter in which you so obviously enjoy arguing about, other than to ( for lack of a better term ) bait us? And for the record, I never implied you were a troll.. And for the subject matter, the BSA should not promote creationism. And for an additional 'for the record', I have defended persons such as yourself on this forum for the right to post, no matter how much myself and others disagree might disagree with you.

Moil, The term 'troll' was used in the context of your attempt to solicit responses with your baited post, in the same context that a fisherman trolls with bait to catch fish. It was not meant to personally describe you! Perhaps if you were exposed to a outdoor program for young men at some point in your childhood, you might have recognized the term. I'm trying to think of some organization that promotes such an outdoor program, but I just can't put my finger on one... :-)

The hike to the top of El Capitan from the valley floor is probably 12 or so miles ONE WAY, with an elevation gain of nearly 4000 feet. Its a VERY strenous hike. You really need to hike in and spend some nights on the trail. We did a trip last year, where we took a shuttle bus from the valley to the trailhead near Yosemite Creek ( off Tioga Road ), then hiked down about 6 miles and set up camp for 2 nights. We then did a day trip to the top of El Cap, about 10 miles round trip, and hiked out down the Yosemite Falls trail the last day. The views were breathtaking! I will tell you, however, that going down that trail on the last day was one of the hardest hikes I've ever done... its steep downhill all the way, and the entire trail is made of stacked rocks... no sandy or level portions where you can walk and watch the scenery - you have to watch where you put every step, lest you twist an ankle... a spectacular hike though, you just gotta be careful. Backcountry permits are required, and I just happen to have the phone number here because we are headed up to Half Dome on Thursday! (209) 372-0740 http://www.nps.gov/yose/wilderness

My heart hurts.... :-(

I think Wingnut has hit the proverbial nail on the head! Feed 'em. Bingo! We made Dutch Oven peach cobbler two nights at camp, and the boys were just as good as gold! I found that keeping them very busy is the key - sign them up for First Class trail and several merit badges, encourage the overnighters, and when they are in camp during free time, get them to grab their books and sit with you to get things signed off. We found that on Friday, after all the programs had closed and before the campwide games began, that the boys really started to unravel, i.e.. poking at each other, throwing rocks, all kinds of little mischief ( nothing serious, but annoying nonetheless ). Keeping them busy was a real key for us - we were lucky and had no homesickness issues, in fact we had one kid who told his mom he was going to quit scouts after summer camp, but ended up asking to be Historian for the troop. I was real happy about that! Oh yea, tell your little colleague with the hurt feelings to grow up. Sheesh! I think you handled the homesickness scout just the best you could. I'm sure it was a trying circumstance for you, but thank you for being there for the kid. You'll look back at your face in the mirror one morning, and you'll have a little grin knowing that you handled it ok.

Hey C'mon folks... how can we take it too seriously when its only an hour a week? :-)

Gosh Folks, God moved out West years ago, its God's Country here in the Sierras! Whenever I go to Yosemite, I'm reminded of just WHO exactly is in charge around here! btw - we renewed our wedding vows some years back at the church there in the valley - Guess who was in attendance? :-)

A committee member approached me about a new type of fundraiser where a person could get a crew of scouts out to their private property for a 2 hour block of general labor, in exchange for a donation to the troop. ( trash hauling, yard maintenance, garage cleanups, etc ). Another variation on this theme was to auction off an afternoon of a scout crew's time for the same sort of work. For the record, I'm opposed to the idea. I don't want my scouts doing menial chores for private landowners, unless its for someone who is handicapped, elderly, cancer patient.. etc.. I also can't see the scouts eagerly attending such a 'fundraiser'... I'd like to keep this part of the Boy Scouts a 'FUNdraiser'. Would appreciate your comments on this idea.

I too agree that the Scout Oath and Law should set the guidelines for proper behavior. I think rather than a Discipline policy, you need a 'Consequences Policy', which spells out exactly what will happen should a serious violation of the Scout Oath and Law occur. For example, first comes a warning and a discussion with the SM, next time, the parents are called in for a conference with the scout and SM, and next is a 30 day suspension for repeated violations. Very serious violations and/or dangerous behavior can jump right up to a suspension ( with conference, of course ). These consequences should be circulated among the scouts and the parents, so everyone is informed. We had an unfortunate situation with a scout in the last few months which forced us to spell this all out. The parent kept trying to make excuses for the scout and would not work with the SM and staff.

FS, I guess I just choose to put my energies into the other aspects of the program, i.e.. character, outdoor skills, etc... the uniform IS a part of our program, we just don't place as much emphasis on it as we do the other parts of the program... So that being said, maybe its just 'California casual'... you know how things are out here on the 'left' coast... :-) ( Seriously though, my own observations is that these forums have a lot of midwest/eastern posters, and in my experience, the further east you go, the more formal things are... and I don't mean this in a negative way, just an observation ). So would I have a problem getting them to wear it every week? In the past before I became SM - probably. Now? Dunno, maybe I should push it a little.

This may be heresy, but here it is... I see a lot of discussion and controversy and tremendous amounts of energy being expended on uniforms in these forums ( that and those crazy Pinewood Derby parents ). Our troop enforces Class A 'dress' uniforms only the first meeting of the month and at Courts of Honor. Class B, i.e.. scout related t-shirt, is acceptable for all other activities. FYI - We have troop t-shirts with our number and logo for all scouts. So far, I've never have a problem getting a scout to wear the uniform when asked. My job is to deliver the program to the scouts. If I wanted to deliver uniforms, I'd be working for Aramark or Cintas... :-) Just my $0.02...

OK, so yes, the rant is all reasonable behavior and common sense. However, its the Scoutmaster and his staff who are responsible for running and implementing the program, and that includes setting standards of behavior and conduct. IMHO, though probably well-intentioned, this committee member is overstepping his/her bounds and intefering with the SM and his staff. If a committee member from my troop had given me that info, I would have politely accepted it and then 'round filed' it.

We have a year round program as well, and we have pretty good attendence. What works well for us, is that we plan the calendar a full year in advance, so that families can plan accordingly ( should they wish to do so ). We always encourage participation on every outing, but we don't lean on those who won't or can't attend. In fact, we have several who are heavily involved in sports, and sometimes they will skip a sporting event, or even show up on Saturday afternoon after the game if the event is not too far away. We also try to present a variety of activities to hold the scouts ( and adults ) interest. i.e.. snow camping, backpack, beach trip, aircraft carrier, rock climb, boating, all of which are overnighters... During the month of December, we typically ask the scouts and adults to make presentations on outings for the next year. This way, everyone feels they have input into the program, and we think this contributes to our good attendance ( and we've had no complaints about 'too much' ).

If suspension doesn't change his attitude, then he's OUT! I had to suspend one scout for 90 days, due to repeated bad behavior, including violence and property damage, this after many warnings, counseling, etc... he just couldn't control his anger. I had to suspend another for 30 days for rough play where he left bruises on another kid, again, many warnings about keeping hands off. This is definitely the hardest thing for a SM to do.. I lost plenty of sleep over these two boys, my stress level was through the roof, and our troop program has suffered for it. I spent more time and effort dealing with these two than with the other 15. However, after much consultation with staff and Committee, we all decided it was necessary. Scouting is a priviledge. Its not a counseling program, rehabilitation or therapy. We are there to deliver a program to ALL the scouts, not just a select few. I'm hopeful that my suspendees will see the error of their ways, and return to the troop and become contributers. If not, then sorry, see ya later...

Once again, a couple of bad apples spoil it for the rest of us. :-( Thank you, OGE, for the fine job and loads of time you've put into the job. I hope you'll continue to bless us with your wisdom and advice in future posts. Hey Scouter-Terry, how about a little discipline for the bad apples? Varying lengths of suspension ( up and to include permanent removal ) should they violate the Scout Law ( courteous, kind, etc )? I'm all for spirited debate, even with those who attack the BSA, but when the attacks get personal, its time for them to go! Just my $0.02.

Karkaghne: I went through Cubs... I went through Webelos...arrow of light I went through Scouts, made Eagle... I was ASM for 2 years.. I am now SM... I have never attended a cub pack/troop meeting were any discussion of homosexuality or atheism occurred. There are a select few scouters, and a select few activists as yourself, who have an agenda and want to be heard. As for the majority of the rest of us, we go on campouts, experience the outdoors, work on advancement, perform community service and try to have fun with our scouts.

Email is a wonderful tool, I much prefer it to speaking with carbon-based life forms. :-) Seriously though, it gives you the opportunity to develop a well formed and thought out response, unlike a phone call where you have to make a quick decision right away. Used properly, its great, but you have to be careful, as I've noted in a previous post, some people will put words into email they would never say to your face, and the anonymity of posts give them a shield. ( remember the movie Hollow Man with Kevin Bacon, he said "its amazing what you can do when you don't have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning" ) I recently received an email complaining about a situation at our last campout. However, the sender never spoke to me personally, and spammed the entire troop with the allegations ( and named specific scouts ). These allegations turned out to be false, and the incident that occurred had already been dealt with at the campout by myself and my staff. Email is a wonderful and very powerful tool. Use the Force wisely!

I don't see any problem with the SM-initiated thing. Ideally, you'd like the scouts to come up with all the outings, but frankly, they sometimes have limited resources as to where to go and what to do, and the adults have years of experience and can recommend new and exiciting places and things for them to do.( In our troop, both the scouts and adults make recommendations on outings, but the scouts vote on which ones to do. ) It sounds like this is an optional 'extra' family type outing, as you stated, in between other outdoor activities. In short, he likes the families in the troop, and enjoys hanging out with them. Besides, you can probably qualify for a group discount! WooHoo!

The intent of the original post was clear. It was not humor, it was a tasteless attempt to provoke a response. I'm with BW and Fscouter on this one. Remove that post.

My response was to the subject of this thread, which is how we respond to and communicate with others with opposing viewpoints in the forums. It has nothing to do with violating BSA rules and other subject matter from the original 'communism' thread. I am just as cynical as the next guy, but when somebody asks me what my 'sign' is, I say its POSITIVE! That's how I'll choose to treat people in these forums. Something else to consider, communicating via email can be tricky at times, because readers cannot always accurately guage the writer's intentions. They may read something and think the writer is rude, when its just the writer not being entirely clear with his writing style. In my work, we have 30 offices around the world, and rely heavily on email for communication. We have different cultures to communicate with, so we need to take the emails at face value, without trying to figure out intent all the time. Even within these forums, we are a diverse group, i.e.. Military, West Coast, East Coast, South, Plains, etc... Finally, email is anonymous, so you don't have to say these things to a persons face. Some people take advantage of that to intentionally goad others, when they wouldn't dare say it to them in person. This brings me back to my original post, in that 1% of the posters deserve that kind of treatment, but the rest of us deserve better. OK, everyone, GROUP HUG!!!!! :-)

A scout is ... Courteous, Kind, ..... I remember seeing that somewhere... hmmmm.... I would like to suggest that if you see a post that you disagree with, or hits one of your 'hot' buttons, that you first ask yourself why this person is part of this forum, and why he/she posted in the first place. I submit that, based on our background as Scouters, that we are participating for the betterment of the Scouting experience, both for ourselves and our scouts, and only have good intentions in mind. Nobody who posts here wants to be scolded or accused. Once you assume a positive stance, you can comment with kindness and helpfulness. Don't let the 1% of the bad posters affect your posts to the 99% of us who only have good intentions in mind. :-)

We've recently had a couple of incidents that have forced us to revamp our discipline policy. We haven't finalized it yet, but here is the gist of it: Scout gets a verbal warning, if that is not sufficient to cease the offending behavior, upon consultation with the ASM's, the scout is given an 'official' warning, and parents are notified and asked to attend a conference with the Scoutmaster. ( SM and staff reserve the right to immediately send any scout home should the behavior be particularly dangerous or disruptive ). The scout is then considered to be on a probationary status for 1-3 months, where he is on a zero-tolerance policy for any more offending behavior. Break the rules again, and the scout is suspended from the troop for 30 days. Before reinstatement, the scout and parents must have a conference with the SM. Repeat offenders will be referred to the Committee, where expulsion from the troop may be considered. Documenting this policy was motivated due to our recent situation with a scout we had to suspend for 3 months. The parents are trying to minimize the scouts behavior and are not supporting the SM and staff. I don't want to lose my good scouts due to the actions of this scout. My staff and I are finalizing this and will present it to the SPL and staff next week for comment. The way we look at it, Scouting is a priviledge. You earn that priviledge by living by the Scout Oath and the Scout Laws, if you don't, yer outta here!