CA_Scouter

My response to the council would be a very polite, but very firm, 'No, thanks anyway, we'll get there when we get there'. I'm with Acco40.

I've recently had what I consider to be a serious incident with a scout which has resulted in a suspension. ( see 'Discipline Issue - need opinions ) I have documented the incident, presented it to the Committee, which ( finally ) approved the disciplinary procedures that I recommended. The parents and scout were informed ( and part of ) the entire procedure ( Mom is membership chair ). Now I've heard through the grapevine that the parents are considering speaking to an attorney. I am not sure if this was idle chatter or not. The reference material that I have ( New Leader, Scoutmaster Specific Trainig ) does not address documenting situations such as these. I also cannot find anything of value on the BSA website. I have a call into my local council, but I thought I'd post here to see about getting some information from others 'in the know'. Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

In our troop, the adult leaders plan most of the weekely activities, then leave it to the scouts to execute the plan. That's contrary to a lot of people's opinions on this forum, but that's what works well for us. The Scouts will assist and help plan the skill bases with the assigned ASM, and we've taught the scouts how to plan for their outings ( food, equipment ), which they handle in patrol meeting time every week. We follow the basic meeting plan as outlined in the various training materials BSA provides, and we set a timed schedule which our SPL follows. It sounds like your adult leaders are expecting the boys to plan the whole thing, but without their guidance. Perhaps have you had a change in Scout leadership lately? Do they now know how to execute a meeting plan? Maybe they just need a lot of adult guidance to get started, then they can take over ( that is our plan ). Kinda like teaching your kid to ride a bike... you run along with 'em for a while, then you let them go.. they may wobble it a bit and even fall once or twice, but eventually they get it. It also sounds like you need some higher energy adult leaders to get these guys going. Just my $0.02.

Resolution to the incident: I just got off the phone with my Committee Chair. After informing the committee of my and my staff's objection to the modified suspension, she asked for a re-vote, and the vote was 8-3 in favor of the full suspension. This is the correct course of action to take. Thank you all for your opinions, advice, and insight, it really did help me to come up with the appropriate disciplinary action for this scout. If and when he returns, we'll have a long heart to heart and get things back on the right track. Thanks again!

Yea, Hunt, I see what you mean. Now I'm the one being flamed! I think I'll go back to working on my troop's program.... that's where I should be putting my effort...

From Meryln's post: "You have no interest in anything but the destruction of the BSA! Why? Because it's popular! " "That's a lie. " No, Meryln, that's an 'opinion'. "And if I recollect from my grade school history, our founding fathers left their native lands for America because of people like you! People who wanted to take away their religious freedom! " "And that's a lie. " That is also an 'opinion'. ( what dictionary are you reading from??? ) In my opinion, this is a situation where you twist the meaning of a word to suit and/or inflame your argument, because you cannot bolster it with facts and logic. This is typical liberal heck-raising, tabloid type, inflammatory tactics. Meryln, opinions are like bellybuttons. Nobody cares about your bellybutton, and you don't care about mine. It doesn't matter if its an 'inny' or an 'outey', you and I can debate the merits of each, call each other names and be generally obnoxious, BUT, they are still just bellybuttons! And, by nature of the definition of the word, you cannot tell me my opinion is wrong. After all, its MY bellybutton, and mine alone!

Thanks All for your support. Oren - yes, I've considered that, but the Committee Chair supports me, so I think this will ultimately be resolved in our favor. She's already sent out an email telling the committee that the SM's will not accept their decision. BW - excellent advice, I will not threaten. Ev - Thanks, I could use 'em. and John's comments, with mine in line.. "Was there any discussion of compensation for the Scout whose equipment was damaged? " Yes, parents said the damage was insignificant, it was the action that compelled it that they were concerned about. "Were the parents of the injured Scout involved in the decision-making? " Yes, they fully supported our ( the SM's ) discipline recommendations. "Is there a clear plan for the boy to work his way back to respectibility. Often, we're good at punishment and less focused on corrective details. You mentioned probation, etc. Does everyone understand (the same thing when it comes to) what it will take for the boy to successfully complete his probation? " Yes, we specified that some proof of anger management treatment must be provided prior to him re-joining the troop, and that he must address the Committee and the SM's with some sort of statement apologizing and ensuring no repeat of the behavior. I must have some guarantee for the safety of my other scouts. Reinstatement to full status is entirely dependent upon SM approval. "Were the parents of the harassed girl informed and/or involved in the decision-making? " No, we did not track her down. "What kind of answers did you get from the Scout when you asked, "Why?" Does he recognize that hs anger spirals his behavior downward and the severity of the consequences upward? " The scout is one of those who gets angry when he is called on his actions, so he just clams up and will not give eye contact. His anger seems deep seated, and far too complicated for my staff and I to figure out. His mother also has no idea why he gets so angry, and that concerns us as well. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. "Even though the Committee said and did the wrong things in your eyes, given what you said they said, doesn't a parent have to attend meetings with the Scout? Is this enough? " We don't require parents to attend every meeting. We haven't found that neccessary. We do, however, require the parent to attend should there be a discipline situation. The mother is our Membership Chair, so she was definitely well informed of the situation. No, simply having a parent attend the meeting is not enough, in our opinion. There have been multiple incidents with this scout, relatively minor in comparison to this incident, but the commulative total requires direct and strong consequences. "I suggest to you, and all CCs and SMs, that decisions made by Committees should be shared with SMs and other Leaders before they become public knowledge. It serves as a built-in check and balance. Not that it's not the Committee's right to make the decision, but we're all volunteers, the human impact is much more important than if the situation included the Committee issuing pay checks. " This has been done, all the ASM's have been filled in and we have informed the Committee Chair of our displeasure. We are asking them to reinstate the full suspension. "BTW, the girl WAS sexually harassed. I'm surprised there were several posters who thought it was "less than that". What was it, flirting? Ask the mother of a teenage girl if it was sexual harassment; ask a lawyer or a judge. Ask a working woman who still gets called, "babe" or "honey" by men compared to whom she is over-educated, over-talented, over-experienced, under-paid, under-titled, etc, etc. " I agree. Thanks All!

Just got back from the meeting. Here were my recommendations: Scouts rank as patrol leader is revoked, no leadership for at least one year, and only upon SM approval. Scout loses Totin' Chip ( duh! ) Scout is suspended from ALL troop activities for 3-6 months. Upon return, scout must show some proof that anger management issues have been addressed, with the clear implication that professional help is required. I must have some guarantee for the safety of my other scouts. Upon return, the scout is on a minimum 3 month probation, where a parent must be in attendence at ALL scout functions, including overnighters. I presented these to the committee, we had some discussion, and then I left to go attend to the remainder of the troop meeting. During that time, the committee discussed the issue and approved just about everything. EXCEPT..... and this really frosts me, they changed the suspension to only being suspended from outings, and not from the weekly meetings! Their thinking was something to the effect that "well he'll just think that he has Monday nights free now, and that he's getting away scot-free". My response was "OK, so now our scout meetings are a form of punishment? Are you kidding me?". I do not want to see this kid at all for a while. He is a poor example of a scout, and I am tired of dealing with him, having to monitor his every move, and having to put up with his attitude. He crossed the line with me this time, causing injury to another scout, and exhibiting dangerous behavior ( I received additional information on the 'fork' incident tonight, it was worse than originally reported ). My ASM's were incensed also. Not only did they ignore our very strong and VERY clear recommendations, they are permitting the kid to continue to work on advancement, and the rest of the troop will get the message that egregious acts do not result in appropriate discipline. Not only that, but they've compromised our authority and our ability to apply such discipline. My ASM's and I spoke to the Committee Chair, and voiced our extreme displeasure at having our authority compromised in such a manner. She promised to contact the committee members this week and relay our displeasure at the situation. As SM, I feel like I've been slapped in the face, and my authority cut off at the knees ( I've also run out of cliche's ). I am VERY UPSET, and so are my ASM's. I am of the state of mind at this point, that if the decision to permit him to attend the weekly meetings is not revoked, that the ASM's and I will sign a letter and deliver it to the committee, stating our intention to resign our positions, and even possibly pull our kids from the troop. Of course, I am venting at this point, and the Committee Chair has always been a huge supporter of the SM and ASM's, so I think this ultimately will be resolved as we originally hoped it would. I should find out in a few days, so I'll add to this post then, because I'm sure y'all want to see how this thing finally works out.

Hypothetically, if you object to a reply from a hypothetical question, aren't you also, by the transitive property of mathematics, ALSO objecting to a hypothical question? BTW - my question above is rhetorical. And pointless. But its not the first time I've been accused of that... :-0)

Please note that I am familiar with YP guidelines, keeping parents informed, documenting the incident, asking the Scout to apologize, etc... I just chose not to include that information in my post, because it was immaterial to the purpose of the post. I'm really just asking for comments from those who have had similar incidents, so that I can make a recommendation to the committee tonight. I want to be sure that I'm not too lax, nor too severe in my recommendation. Thanks much All!

I have a discipline issue that I'd like to get some feedback on from experienced scouters. Sorry for the long post, but I want to give you as much information as I can... On our campout this weekend, the scouts were a bit rambunctious, so we had a couple of minor discipline issues to address ( throwing items, running through the campground, VERY noisy ), so I took the troop aside, and informed them that any unscoutlike behavior would have consequences ( call home, duct tape the to a tree... you know what I mean.. :-0 ) . Furthermore, I made a distinct point about them acting as gentlemen, meaning I expected them to be considerate of their neighbor and of other scouts.( I am keeping this description short to focus more discussion on the bigger problem ). Later that day, one of our patrol leaders, a Star Scout ( 14yr old ), made a trip down to the restroom area with several of his younger charges (11yr olds) - Buddy System, OK, you get the drift here.... They ran across several young ladies of similar age at the facilities at the same time, where they engaged in some conversation ( of what subject matter I do not know ). As the young ladies entered the restroom, our Star Scout blurted out 'All I want to do is to f*** you.'. Unfortunately for this Star Scout, an ASM had just finished taking a shower in the same facility, heard the comment, and confronted the scout about it. The Star Scout admitted he had made the comment, and apologized for it. The ASM immediately returned to the adult site, informed me of the incident, and I gathered the rest of the ASM's, and our committee chair, and we discussed the situation. We were all apalled and moritifed that a Star Scout in our unit would use such vulgar language and act that way to a young lady. As we see it, he engaged in sexual harassment, ignored a direct statement from he adult leadership to behave in a scout-like, and set an extremely poor example for his young scouts. He also brought shame and embarassment to our troop, as he was wearing his class B t-shirt at the time, and was easily identifiable as a scout. We decided to suspend the scout from the next meeting, temporarilty demote him from PL to APL for the month of June, and require him to complete a one page essay regarding sexual harassment before returning to the next troop meeting. Not to mention that the young lady's parents could have pressed the issue and put the troop, its leaders and the boys parents at risk for litigation. Later that evening, one of my ASM's did a routine check on their campsite, and found this scout pounding a kitchen knife into the picnic table, apparently in anger. When the ASM told him to stop, he stuck the knife into the table, and without a word, stalked off into his tent. We spoke to his mother upon returning this afternoon, and she was also mortifed of her son's behavior. She promised to speak to him this evening. Got it so far? Good, because I have more.... I just received a call from my committee chair, who had spoken to another parent this evening, upon which we found out that this same Scout had harassed another scout last night, in fact, poking him with a long fork ( normally used for marshmallows ), poking holes in his sleeping bag, holes in his sleeping pad, and poked him in the arm, and actually drew blood. So, to say the least, I am not happy. I have a scout who has engaged in sexual harrassment and has presented extremely poor leadership qualities/examples to my newest scouts. Additionally, he has violated his Totin Chip rules, and obviously has some major anger issues. As we have a Committee Meeting tomorrow night, we have added these incidents as an agenda item to discuss. SOME FACTS: This scout has had discpline issues in the past, and was demoted from the rank of Den Chief and suspended from activities for 6 weeks ( last year ). His mother is a committee member, and he has a younger brother in the troop ( this has little to no weight in how I/we ultimately decide to handle this, but its worth mentioning for background info ). The scout lost his father when he was 6-7 years old ( car accident ), and his mother remarried. The step father is a decent fellow, but I'm sure things are pretty complicated at home. I personally now consider him to be a safety issue, if not a danger to, the other scouts. A STATEMENT FROM ME: As much as I try to emphathize with peoples individual hardships, I am not equipped to handle the psychological issues that I see manifesting here. I am not trained in child development, child psychology or social work. ( I have basic SM training ). I am here to provide a good outdoor program, and to prepare these young scouts to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by installing in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. We have additional consequences in mind now that we have this new information, but I'd like to get input from a variety of sources before we make a decision. At this point, our plan is to interview the scouts in his patrol to determine the facts, some of which is hearsay at this point. After we determine the exact sequence of events, we'll probably call another committee meeting to discuss what kind of action to take.... Yes, we are documenting these incidents, and will document the disciplinary procedures for this Scout, once we gather and verify all the facts. WHAT I NEED FROM YOU: I'd sure like to hear from anyone who has had a similar discipline problem, and how they managed to resolve it. We have a committee meeting tomorrow night, 5/23/2005. I'll check for posts during the day tomorrow.

Your SM is not making use of an available resource. After I made Eagle ( many many moons ago ), I was promoted to a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster, where I assited in planning the monthly agenda, handled special assignments, and was part of the Patrol Leaders Council, where I helped advise the patrol leaders. Having your Eagle just 'fill in' is a waste of a resource. Your SM needs to get him involved in the program to promote it and to provide an example for the younger scouts to work towards. Just my $0.02... :-)

Our last two campouts this year were rained on quite heavily. On the first trip, we had the Webelos with us ( prior to the new rules about Webelos not being allowed on overnights any longer ), and their parents, and we had several of them get pretty wet and cold. I even had some of my 2nd year scouts get wet, which was disappointing, mainly because they simply did not put on the gear. Prior to the second trip, we reviewed the skills on how to stay dry, and what gear to bring. This included reviewing personal rain gear, examining their tents to check for leaks, how to properly setup their tent fly's, siting their tents, etc. The patrol leaders also made a point of reviewing gear lists during their meetings. On the second trip, again we were hit by heavy rain. This time though, not one single scout got wet, including the newbies who just crossed over. It was really great to see them learn and apply the skills we just taught them. Regarding gear, we have 3 EZ-Ups which we use, and I have 2 ASM's who are nuts about erecting elaborate tarp structures. I mean NUTS. They wrapped the adult EZup with tarps on three sides, hung a 20x40 tarp between trees and set up the tents underneath, geez, I was half expecting them to start marching animals by two-by-two... :-)

TX is right on the mark. Minimal clothing, they won't want to change clothes.. and if I didn't institute two mandatory shower days last year, they wouldn't have done that either. One thing I suggested last year, was to have the scouts NOT bring white t-shirts. That way, if you were out of smelling range, they at least had the ILLUSION of being somewhat clean. :-) I also agree with Eagle... last year, despite our 'packing light' skill bases, some moms packed for the newbies. We hiked in about a half mile from the parking lot, and those newbies were struggling with all the gear, 80% of which they didn't use anyway.

Although there is no BSA policy that prevents an ASM from signing off for his/her own son, our troop has an unofficial policy that ASM's do not do so. This eliminates any question of impropriety on the ASM's part. And unfortunately, your leadership is supporting this boy's perception that he can buy/lie through his advancement. Someone has to stop this runaway train right away, or advancement and the integrity of your program will become a joke. I'm sure your scouts can see what's going on, so this is being taught to them also.

I don't see anyone here 'determining national policies'. I see someone posing a question as a discussion topic, as a means of sharing ideas between peers. No one needs to be scolded for that... Not everything I do with Scouts has to have a direct impact on my next troop meeting. Sometimes, discussing scouting philosophy and ideas with other Scout leaders across the forms is a form of recreation and relaxation. I enjoy communicating with people who are as excited about Scouting as I am, and by doing so, I gain knowledge and expertise that has a trickle-down effect to my troop. Its a good thing. That being said, I also don't care for some of the topics that are posed on these forums, and so I choose to not participate in those threads. If you don't care for the subject matter, move on to the next thread. Simple as that. So Prairie... my thinking is that the policy on gays in Scouting is more an issue of YP than it is related to a religious stance or view. Also, my experience has been that scouting families are a pretty convervative bunch, and that there is a lot of fear regarding homosexuality, so that is what drives the BSA policy.

Bob, you gotta lay off the coffee...

>I for one consider this thread ridiculously absurd, for it serves no real purpose or leads to any meaningful discussion. >We'll disagree. Speak for yourself. Backpacker and I are in agreement. I'm sure there are more that are simply ignoring this subject and moving on to real scouting topics. But OK, maybe I'm being too harsh. Let's try this one... If an alien spaceship landed in your front yard and Elvis knocked on your front door............

I personally resent the sensationalist tone of the subject line. Its meant only to provoke, not to provide meaningful debate on a subject relevant to Scouting. Yes, I can see people want to split hairs on this issue, as they've included definitions and explanations and many shades of gray, but its still just splitting hairs to me...

Our Camporee has some fun activities. Pancake Toss - Scouts have to build a fire, cook a pancake, run about 10 yards, toss it over a line strung between two trees, eat it, then run back. They do this for 3 pancakes, and its rip roaring fun for the scouts, especially when the designated eater misses the toss and has to pick up the pancake off the ground and eat it. ( this particular activity worked very well a couple of years back when we had a disabled scout.. he couldn't run, be he could eat! ). Log Lift - Scouts have 10 or so logs of varying weight, with the goal to lift as many logs as possible in x minutes. They start by throwing a line over a tree limb, then lifting the log using a timber hitch, and finally tie the other end to a stake with a clove hitch. Repeat as many times as possible, each log has a point value... logs are 10-30 pounds in weight or so.. good team work, though more than 4 scouts might be too many.. you either have to limit it or split the patrol and do an average time...

Let's change the question a bit. What are suitable ways of dealing with Scouters who judge others on their appearance instead of their character, and who are a poor example for Scouts because of that? I would NEVER approach a sensitive subject like that with someone who has dedicated a significant portion of their free time to Scouting. We have a former SM, now a committee member, who is a very large person, but this year we awarded him is 30 YEAR PIN! He has been contributing time EVERY WEEK for 30 years to the BSA. What kind of example does that set? As Bob says, you may have concern for your friend, and wish to discuss the situation with him, but chances are, he already knows he is obese. :-)

I saw that yesterday, you gotta give them credit for their imagination. :-) I'm waiting for the MicroSoft Office merit badge, or perhaps the 2015 AT&T National BoyScout Jamboree. Or maybe a Nike swoosh on our uniform shirts. :-)

This guy goes to a Psychiatrist.. "Doc, sometimes I feel like a wigwam, and sometimes I feel like a teepee." Doc says, "You're two tents".

Oh man, what about the cheese analogy? Is nobody going to comment on that? I thought that was pretty good.... :-) Unfortunately, as much as you want to convince us that the BSA is some sort of an evil empire, you have about as much of a chance of doing that as we do of convincing you that we really are pretty decent people with good intentions. Stalemate.

"If the BSA wants to spread their prejudices against people like me," or.... "If Mr. Westley wants to spread his prejudices about the BSA to people like me,".... Let's say I have a big piece of cheese, but it has a piece of mold on one corner. Do I throw away the entire block of cheese, or do I accept that I don't like that part of it but eat the rest? There is nothing wrong with the rest of the cheese, in fact, its pretty darn good and delicious, satisfies me, nourishes me, and makes me stronger. I don't have to try to convince everyone that the whole block of cheese is bad, I don't seek out the Wisconsin and California Cheese Councils and tell them their products are not good for the public, and I don't stress myself out about that one piece of mold. A little mold will grow on just about everything in your refrigerator at one time or another. You can throw it out and go hungry, or digest what's good and be nourished. .. which is what I'm going to do now... where's da crackers??? :-)