Jameson76

Huh

Seems like a politico took advantage of a public event to strengthen his candidacy.  While that is his right, as the BSA was in charge of the event, likely could have handled it better

Apparently Mr Mesuer ran for the 10th district nomination in 08 and lost, the 11th district at some point and is now running for the newly remapped 9th district.  The man does not seem to know the word "concede"

We have seen feedback that Cubs then Webelos gets waayyy redundant (how many times to a Fire Station).  Also the pack meetings are sometimes challenging, there is a pretty big difference between a 1st grader (now a kindergartner) and the 5th graders.  There have been some Cubs that leave and then join the troop when they are 11

For the ones in the troop we have seen this feedback

• My friends are not involved
• Do not like camping
• Sports (though we do realize they may be gone for a season)
• Needs more structure (guess the whole boy led and may fail not seen as value)
• Too many outings (once a month...seriously??)
• Just really not my thing

26 minutes ago, AVTech said:

I absolutely disagree with you on this point. My daughter is a Girl Scout. She is bored to tears and cannot wait to be able to do all the cool things her older brother gets to do. The GSUSA  program is very open-ended, so leaders who don't like to camp run programs without camping. The BSA program is much more rigid, and heavily biased towards being outdoors. We will not be poaching from GSUSA, except for those who are NOT being served by their existing Troop's program. We will be attracting young women who want the adventure that a properly run Troop offers.

Not discounting your anecdotal experience

But to be clear, there is nothing preventing her Girl Scout troop from doing any of the activities similar to a BSA unit.  That is their choice.  Not knowing the breakdown, demographics, or flow of participants within GSUSA; one would presume that if there was demand for mirror type activities similar to the BSA, then that would have been incorporated.

Perhaps GSUSA is as tone deaf as BSA with regards to actual things that happen at the actual unit with actual scouts.  As long as you sell cookies, all is well

22 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

This is pretty much the exact same argument folks had when the BSA announced that it would allow gay boys in Scouts but allow Troops to make their own decision on whether to include gay boys or not.  The opponents of the inclusion of gay boys weren't content enough to accept that they would have a local (re Troop/CO level) choice of whether or not to include gay boys.  They wanted to make sure their neighboring Troops didn't have that choice either because they didn't want their gay-boy free Troop to have to interact with Troops that had gay boys at summer camp, camporees, flag ceremonies, etc. 

I'm not commenting on these types of threads as much anymore because frankly, I'm tired of the whining and groaning and complaining and the threats to leave.  If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.  The Scouts - both the youth members in your units, and the organization as a whole, doesn't need your negativity.  As far as I'm concerned, your Negative Nellyism is going to do far more damage to the Boy Scouts of America and to your Scouts then the inclusion of girls ever will. 

Could the BSA have done better announcing it?  Sure.  At the same time, us people on the ground could have handled it a lot better too - letting the BSA roll it out without all of our speculation.  And no, I don't buy the excuse that in a vacuum people will come up with their own plans.  We're adults - adults can show patience and forbearance, (and model it for our Scouts) and wait until official news comes out to start making our plans - we don't have to act like 8th graders worried about what some bully might do to us after school.  At the most, the only thing we should have done is had a conversation with our CO to ask how they wanted us to handle the co-ed program once it was announced.

If your sons are driving your decision, that's fine - that pretty much drives most people's decision making anyway.

But if your decision making is being made because you personally are upset that the BSA didn't send out a survey to each and every member of the organization to ask for their opinion first, then walk through the door, don't look back - and get on with your life without Scouting and let the rest of us who will work to make things work get on with the business of giving our Scouts the best program that we can.

Not the same situations or served groups

If this was truly a move to by BSA to broaden / expand / service the under served or discriminate against; then maybe.  Challenge is the group they are opening the BSA up to already has a group that services them.  There are also a myriad of groups that service coed youth; religious, community, neighborhood, educational.

Bottom line is this is a move about membership numbers and dollars.  That is all.  Bad decisions by the professionals over the years and very recently with Summit and bloated National staff.  Then they justify this with surveys and separate programs and listening tours and unanimous votes (can you say politburo) is basically not-Trustworthy and not-Loyal

This changes the basic thrust of scouting and dilutes the efforts to mold young men.  Will it be around in 10 years, maybe.  Will it be the same, absolutely not.

Remember the why behind the swimming emphasis in the BSA, it is a needed life skill

• From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States
  • about ten deaths per day
• An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.
• About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger
• For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries

• Swimming skills help
• Taking part in in formal swimming lessons reduces the risk of drowning among children aged 1 to 4 years
• However, many people don’t have basic swimming skills
• A CDC study about self-reported swimming ability found that:
  • Younger adults reported greater swimming ability than older adults.
  • Self-reported ability increased with level of education.
  • Among racial groups, African Americans reported the most limited swimming ability.
  • Men of all ages, races, and educational levels consistently reported greater swimming ability than women.

14 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Never mind DRP=Declaration of Religious Principles. Thanks Mrs Google!

Let's not be gender specific, gotta be inclusive

That would be (and I am guessing here)  Thanks Mx Google

2 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So if I don't embrace coed camping, I am unworthy to wear the World Crest? Please clarify.

Funny, I had the same sort of feedback when I spoke with our local SE (sorry CEO) after the announcement, he rolled out the term "conditional scouters".  Guess the implication is I was only active and supportive as long as I like the conditions.

Clearly the challenge is conditions have changed.  I did not change it, you did not change it.   Not sure this is all good change management

21 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So in other words, the whole BSA4G structure is unworkable. 

You have to take the longer term view, BSA4G spelled another way = Coed.  That is where the train is headed with CSE Surbaugh and the National board stoking the fires to keep up the full head of steam.  We all have a couple of choices, get on board and embrace the change (make no mistake the whole CO has a choice  will be an cast aside) or just be pushed to the side.  Those that want to experience a single gender type program for boys, not sure where you can go.  Apparently there is one for girls called Girl Scouts.  Unlike the BSA (name subject to change) they are pretty adamant about the whole single gender thing.

From their post after the October announcement: (note it mentions girl 8 times in just the excerpt)

"Girl Scouts is the best girl leadership organization in the world, created with and for girls, We believe strongly in the importance of the all-girl, girl-led, and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides, which creates a free space for girls to learn and thrive."

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Scouter has said he will drop, he does not plan on chaperoning coed camping trips.

Yep - a whole new world there, while we as leaders strive to work and engage on character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness; that will become a focus and we will become less "Scouting" and more just another youth organization kids can dabble in

37 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

if the troop does go coed, the boys will ultimately decide to stay, transfer, or quit altogether.

And that is how the real referendum on these changes will be made

26 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

More like 5 to 20 months.

5 to 20 minutes

13 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I have never heard of the Magic Draft, but I sure have heard of Magic cards.  They are a plague on Scouting (and on humankind in general) as far as I am concerned. There have been incidents at summer camp of kids stealing cards, charging each other exorbitant amounts (in U.S. $) for cards, and other un-Scoutlike behavior.  I am glad my son never got into that whole thing.

Our guys play Hearts and some other card games.  We even keep a supply of regular playing cards in the trailer for such.  At the lock-in they play some of these, but then that's what the lock-in is for...that and head shot dodge ball

Call it what you want, linked troops will be coed units.  But that has obviously been the plan all along.  The dishonesty and doublespeak is just atrocious.

The whole one committee has 2 troops is again (as with most of this rollout) just a statement made in a world of fantasy.  Most troops have enough trouble getting a committee together to actually meet for 1 unit, much less 2 units.

Such a mixed message and really poor messaging.  As has been stated, the CSE and BSA National is plunging ahead like they have never seen an actual unit function in the real world...with real volunteers...and real actual parents.  There is likely little credence to the statements that CO and troops can elect to remain single gender.  No doubt that will change in short order.

BSA National...just be honest with what you are planning.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It confused me as a kid as well. In the 70s we didn't make such a fuss about crossing over.

Agree on the crossing over, that was not even a thing back in the day.  You turned 11 and joined a troop.  Remember was in Webelos, then went to Scouts.  No big deal.  Some guys had earlier birthdays so they wrapped up and left.  

Still recall my first Scout camping trip, and we did not camp as cubs back in the day, was off to the swamp and canoeing about.  Best thing ever.

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Found out that some councils are not enforcing the minimum 4 girls to start as an early adopter. 

3 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Scout Queen/King as needed.

So...to be clear, I am not supposed to be running the Texas hold-em big blind games at camp?  Admittedly the pots get way smaller after the first night and "the house" seems to have been the big winner.  Will have to adjust the campsite events

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

BTW is it just me or is their a LOT more of a push for getting folks to Philmont this summer?

Have you seen the amount of open treks listed?

• 62 crew openings in June
• 93 crew openings in July
• 145 crew openings in August

29 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Seems like such a STUPID solution that only exists to provide cover for Mr. Surbaugh after his previous statements about "no co-ed troops". Trying to have it both ways. I'd rather have intellectual consistency since we have to go out and explain this Potemkin Village to the parents.

Not that I have an opinion. 

I may just name this "Surbaugh's Skort Solution" as something that is a hacked hybrid that is neither co-ed or single sex. Really. Your not going to listen to us Scouters anyway so just make a freaking decision--he needs to stop thinking this is a new chapter in "Profiles in Courage".

We all knew it was going to be headed this way.  

The only brick left in the wall (and it is a very very short wall) is CO's can choose to not have a BS4G troop at their location...for now...until the next FAQ release...or they just feel like it...or there is threat of a suit...of the media sort of wants it

10 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Few interesting points...FAQ indicates

boy and girl Troops cannot have the same SM.

boy and girl Troops can meet at same time and place

 

Actually - Chartered organizations should have separate Scoutmasters for their boy troop and girl troop.  That means not encouraged but not prohibited.  If not allowed the wording would (I assume) be cannot 

27 minutes ago, John-in-KC said:

Except for the fact I know it will happen, I would bet a beer that there will be at least one pair of troops in the nation who will have the same scoutmaster and ASMs, and the PLCs meet as one. 

What's the over under on percentage of "Linked" (wink wink) troops with this configuration?

OK - So what are linked troops?  That is a new phrase to the party

1 hour ago, krikkitbot said:

Related question. Do you place a limit on the number of adults going on each camping trip? 

Typically no.  We have 35 - 40 scouts each outing, so for driving we need 10 or so just to get there.  If a parent is new we cover where the leaders camp, let the scouts do there thing, etc.  If you go on more than one outing we will register you.  We do require all that attend outings to be current with YPT.  We have had some aged out scouts that come on occasion.  They always think the YPT is sort of creepy.

We never have moms attend, must be a vibe we give off.  There have been some doting dads and the SM or outdoor person will give  friendly chat about let them be.  Sometimes we have to send a scout back to patrol areas who is coming looking for dad too much.  On the flip side we get some whose kids do not ride to or from the outing with the dad, and actually never seem to speak with the dad.  

It all seems to work out.  The new dads, especially those that have recently crossed over really like the troop camping plan.

We use the JASM, typically this is a former SPL, so they may not be there much.  We have had success at Summer camp (we take 50 - 60) with some older scouts attending as they need to get some requirements complete.  Works really well.  Leader in camp works with the JASM who then backstops the SPL / ASPL's.  Gives them responsibility and a good taste of leadership.

Had a staff member who had an issue with a scout one time, came to see us, we referred him to the JASM and they worked it out.

The cash part is always a fun thing.  We rarely deal with cash, mainly checks and paypal.

That being said I have had someone pay for summer camp at the last week in cash before, advise SM and Treasurer, then had the cash at the house.  After camp we settled up with a documentation of the cash.  Received XXX for camp.  Paid YYY out of pocket expenses at summer camp.  Here is the remainder (or still need ZZZ)

We are all volunteers.  Document things clearly, but don't be a czar and bang your shoe on the desk, need to make it easy to do the business of the unit. 

Funny part is at Philmont to lessen impact we all camped right together.  That was different.  Each adult had their own tent, but it was different being 3 yards from scouts as opposed to out of site.  They were annoyed by the snoring but that was just a bonus