Jameson76

We were scheduled for the OA election a few weeks back.  The rules (guidelines??) seem to state you need to have 50% +1 of the registered Scouts in attendance to have the election.  Now we are a big troop with an active membership, so that night (by our math) we had about 40% - 42% of the scouts (they move around and it is hard to count). 

OA Guys start quoting paragraphs and rules about how to run an election.  Honestly we were about to tell them, fine, take off.  They wanted to come back another night, we said, hey go for it but it is a moving target.  Our thoughts were, here is an organization within the BSA that, I suppose, wants to expand it's membership, yet has arcane rules and roadblocks to adding to that membership.  We did have the election in the end.

Why is there a 50% rule, seriously what does it matter?  I was active in the OA back in the day was actually a Lodge advisor one time.  Cannot recall this rule and wonder if it is some local thing to make themselves really "important"

21 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Now that is just being picky. Besides, makes it hard to see that they are girls. 

They will put bling and sequins on hats, will be simple

19 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

I've seen more four leaf clovers in the last 15 years than I have seen UCs.

For us they are sort of like a rare solar eclipse.  They come by, introduce themselves, then we never see them again.  As far as I can tell they have never directly contacted the SM, CC, or any adults.  They have (and I have seen 2 visits in 10 years) only come by, stayed about 30 minutes, and we never hear from them again.  We presume there is some sort of write up or report that is filed at the district, then filed at the council, then filed at regional, then filed at National.  Sort of a vision of Soviet era paperwork being shuttled along and boxes checked.

In theory commissioners are good, not sure in practicality if they actually do anything.

7 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

That's OK it is all 'interim' - nothing to see here. Please move along.

But swell, they sure are cute.

I don't think you can say cute...but I have not taken the recently updated YPT, so not 100% sure

14 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Aren't those the same girls from that "photo op"?

Sort of looks like them

FLYER - 

GIRL BEING INTERVIEWED ON CBS

You don't mean (SHOCKED FACE) that the whole thing was STAGED!!!

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I wish you had not pointed that out, someone no doubt will be punished for it now.

36 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

North Korean Girls to Join Boy Scouts  of America in 2018!

 

Yeah, what was I thinking, you are right.

Odd that literally everything matches but their shoes...no doubt an oversight

3 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Dang if I know. When my Son was SPL he kept asking the adults for some cost numbers on trips (for over a year). So he and the PLC could...you know....actually take ownership and plan trips with a budget (I know what a concept!). He got constantly stonewalled. I brought it up at committee as well. I think a lot of it was transportation costs...that has been a big cost driver, along with expensive 'group' meals (the popular "lets stop at Golden Corral on the drive home") and "we need to put the boys up at a hotel along the way".

The solution is Patrol campouts. Amazing how cheap those got.

Good points

We did not cook on the MLK trip.  Stayed on the Alabama and got meals there.  Then ate on the NAS base in Florida for some meals.  Did the Battleship and camped on the NAS recreational area, all meals, free Naval museum, played on the beach, $50 per person.  Scouts had to pay for their own lunch on the way there and back.  If we had included mileage charges, would have more than doubled the cost

Gifts in kind are your friend

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I predict girls will find a way to join Troops affiliated with this Forum before the official date by National. 

No doubt they are already have.  

On 2/12/2018 at 2:52 PM, Tampa Turtle said:

 We did the Yorktown at Patriots Points and it was $175 a kid. Transportation costs are the killer. 

How did you spend that much for Patriots Point?  Curious did you charter a bus?

We do one long trip each January.  Good thing is leaders / parents that drive traditionally absorb the mileage.  We did 900 plus miles with 13 cars on MLK this year., so I personally know the cost.  More mileage to deduct I guess.

42 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(BTW I do not think girls showing up in my Troop is the same DEFCON level as war with Korea)

 

To be clear, at this point, Girls cannot join your troop nor in the immediate future would they.  Yes that will no doubt be subject to change, but wanted to level set (and I know you were being dramatic)

44 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I cannot figure if they are being stupid, intellectually lazy, or sneaky. I do not think they have a very workable plan and will make us figure it all out. I am not hearing much organizational wisdom trickling down to the Council and District level...at least around here. I do hear some genuine hurt feelings from long time folks who are not planning to make a fuss.

Agree 100%.  I am amazed that the National BSA office and board made this momentous decision, and literally had no real workable implementation plan.  Anyone who has spent any actual time at the unit level can come up with multiple scenarios that need to be resolved.  Admittedly they may not have the answers yet, but the shallowness and lack of even acknowledging there may be questions is stunning. 

48 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

She expressed her frustration over how the Troop and BSA in general has so enabled scouts to get Eagle so fast (the boy in particular attended two summer camps to load up on Merit Badges) that they are missing the point of developing leadership in scouts by going so fast and what is the point of Eagle if it is just an academic exercise.

What she is saying is a challenge and concern.  That being said there are in any endeavor minimum requirements.  As long as the Scout meets the minimum, they have in fact met the requirements.  I have conversations with Scouts and parents and try try try to remind some of them that Scouting is a journey and not so much a destination.  Scouts need to enjoy the trip.  Every outing is not about advancement.  Sometimes we go to the lake to get towed behind boats and canoe around because it's fun, sometimes we hike in the rain because it is a personal challenge, sometimes we climb that mountain because (wait for it) it is there. (and we can spit off the ledge)

Just now, MattR said:

Is it only me but look at the font. Now look at the font for the scout handbook 8th edition ('72-'79)

Bad Karma.

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And we already face folks pushing "family camping" on the boy scout level.

 

You gotta look those folks in the face and clearly state 

8 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

  Look at the executive message..  it says "Our recent historic decision to serve families by inviting girls to Cub Scouts and delivering a program that will enable them to earn the rank of Eagle Scout..."

It it is really large print and denotes Family Scouting

If BSA National had only meant CUBS,then logically it would have said that.  That which is not specifically excluded is assumed to be included

4 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

If the boys who are current members do not support that change but it is pushed upon them anyway, yes, it does equal telling them to get lost.  

Have you spoken with any boys on this matter?  Every boy I have spoken to has asked "Why don't they just fix Girl Scouts?".  The boys I have spoken with do not support this change at all. 

Spot on. 

Main message after the announcement from BSA National, Council pros, etc has been if you do not support the change, then maybe you were a "conditional" scout.  So yes, that is the subtext of the message included within the change.  We are doing this with you or without you

7 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Those were all canceled in 1952.   

8 minutes ago, gblotter said:

The infographic on the same Family Scouting web page is not so clear in defining Family Scouting. The term applies to girls entering BSA at all levels.

Yeah...that big giant FAMILY is not really clear what it applies to.  We can infer and assume all we want but (as has been well noted) the message is a bit muddled.  The decision was made to admit girls to the program, rather than sell that, let's sell families, everybody loves that!!

4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

In support of my assertion, it appears that BSA has already created a new Ballet merit badge.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222834942657

<a little humor is merited in this serious discussion - no?>

Been going downhill since they discontinued Blacksmithing, Stalking, and Taxidermy merit badges.  Those were the ones that toughened them up.

32 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

In Cub Scouts, family camping is great.  It's a lot of fun for the younger kids.   Our council offers scout only camps and family weekend camps, and it's nice to have that variety. 

While it may be great it is also required for any outings, and for good reasons.  Note that Cubs and Scouts are two separate programs.  What is great for Cubs and 6 - 10 years olds does not translate to working with 11 - 17 years olds

34 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(4) Some units who try to stay "Boy Only" will face a PR disaster when some girl gets turned away. Only if a religious based National C.O. backs them up will this be tenable.

To be clear, as of 2/13/2018 and at 10:04 EST, as we may understand the basic intent of the decision to allow Girls into the Cubs and Scouts; Cub units do have the option to remain single gender.  Also as faintly outlined there will be Girl Troops, so current Male only Boy Scout Troops will remain as such, so not really an option for Girls to join a current troop.

That is of course subject to change based on a potential future survey given to people not involved in scouting at this time at the whim of BSA National (results will not actually be presented to the general public only the feedback that everybody will join if there are fully coed units)

18 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(1) BSA National has made the announcement and cannot go back.

(2) BSA has announced a "Separate but Equal' policy.

(3) A few will try "Separate but Equal", some will ignore it and go "co-ed", and most will lack the manpower to pull it off.

(4) Some units who try to stay "Boy Only" will face a PR disaster when some girl gets turned away. Only if a religious based National C.O. backs them up will this be tenable.

(5) National will have no choice but to "relax" the policy on separate units. It is only a temporary tactic.

(6) None of this will change the fundamental problems (program, culture, program, finances)  BSA is facing. In fact it is a distraction.

All very accurate

The final point (6) is the one that BSA National has not done really any work on.  They are facing declining membership.  Rather than fully understand why some units are successful and grow or at the very least stay healthy, and others decline, we get this broad brush solution of "the family" and we are not meeting the needs of "the family"

That is at best a straw man that anyone with any real world experience in Scouting knows is BS.  The comments by our CSE that this will help by being a "one stop" program ring hollow.  If BSA holds to single gender dens, then even twins could end up with den meetings on separate days.  With different age kids in different dens, again, multiple days.  In most packs there may be 2/3 family camping events per year, 9/10 pack meetings, but maybe 25 or so den meetings.  Vast majority of the time is den meetings, and those should be separate.  Though some packs may have all their den meetings at one place at one time, but that can vary

The separate but equal plan gets even more complicated as kids get older.  If you have a 13 YO Boy / 11 YO Girl /9 YO Boy / 7 YO Girl Scouting in a Single gender Den and SBE Scout function will be a many events.  13 YO Boy will be in the Boy Boy Scout Troop, 11 YO Girl will be in Girl Boy Scout Troop, 9 YO Boy will be in their Den, and 7 YO Girl will be in their Den.  In theory the troops could meet on different nights, go on different outings, etc etc.  Same for Cubs

Then along will come the real long term plan, fully coed at all units, the reason...we have listened to "the families" and this will meet their needs.

Funny thing is, The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

Nothing about families here.

So if they can profit say 30% per leader ($89) they only need like 2.4 million leaders to attend to handle the balloon payment due in a few years

We have 6 patrols and once you are assigned to a patrol, that is your patrol for your tenure.  Note we have about 90 scouts, so roughly 15 assigned per patrol.  That being said, there are they older scouts who may be not as active, and we split up the new scouts each year based on actual activity to keep a good core group.

For most outings we have 6 patrols that function. Typically about 40 attend each outing.  Our lake outing had 70 with about 20 leaders in and out, so 90+ in camp for the period.  Some of the outings two patrols may combine so we have 6 -8 scouts working together.  In that case the two patrols determine which PL will be in charge for that outing in a combined patrol.  

We let the Greenbar determine which patrols combine

4 minutes ago, SSF said:

I'm sure it's been done, but I think there are things you do with your family and there are things you do with your troop, and WDW definitely falls into the former...in my humble opinion

I would have to agree.  There are many many activities that troops can do, not saying WDW is a bad one, but it would be pricey.  We try to keep our outdoor trips and campouts to those things a Scout's family can do, but may not want to do as a family.  Backpacking, kayaking on a river, canoeing in the swamp, biking on a rails to trails, primitive camping at a State Park, etc.  Each year we do a trip that is longer, but still has some outdoors or adventure elements.  Staying overnight on a museum ship, touring some of the military museums, ziplining.

Also we work very hard to keep the cost elements reasonable.